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[Music]

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explode the bazaars are your e-ticket

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ride into the world of the paranoid

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strap yourself Ian as we traverse the

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universe exploring the unexplained UFO s

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ghosts Lost Worlds

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cryptozoology waters as well as other

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dimensions it's time to take back the

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night last night now your electrifying

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hosts of exploring the bizarre Timothy

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Begley and team sports Wow you know it's

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really cold and dark in here and I feel

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like spiders crawling on my face but

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look there's a giant mirror in front of

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me mirror mirror on the wall who is the

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most influential ufologist of them all

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well Tim I'm doing great Tim how about

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yourself to have a good Thanksgiving

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well you know I'm still stuffed with

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Turkey and but I went out with my buds

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my my besties was weak home here in New

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York we went down to the Lower East Side

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and we had Indian food you know spicy

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Korean and you know that and then my

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niece's daughter Michelle popped in and

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was some Turkey a big drumstick and some

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shell salad which is my my favorite and

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of course I got all kinds of candies and

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cakes from our listeners that's awesome

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all right that's a lie but you know what

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the hell well I did I did

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I thought you do yes they must have sent

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them all to you but we've been busy we

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got a couple of new books out and of

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course we're mailing our catalog and

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we're getting excited because the

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holiday is almost upon us and Santa and

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Krampus will be coming down the year the

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chimney and that's that's right that's

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right Krampus my favorite time of the

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year when crumpets comes to take care of

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all the bad little boys and girls

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yeah he's gonna leave lots of cold for

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Donald Trump we could have a good laugh

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over everybody that's right we're

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totally ignorant of what's happening in

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the world is is everybody else it seems

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but Ted over decider III idle chattering

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on our part I'm sure we'll do enough

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during the show why didn't you tell us

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we're going to be speaking with this

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evening in the exploring a bizarre kco

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our radio living room why my pleasure

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Tim as always you know we've got two

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fantastic guests tonight and we have

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with this Susan Demeter st. Claire yes

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and Mike Cleland now both of these

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people I should mention have some have

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incredible essays in a book that came

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out I think in May called UFOs reframing

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the debate and this is a it's it's such

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a pleasure to have both of these people

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on the show tonight now Susan is a

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professional research assistant author

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editor and SCI experimenter her research

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interest include individual

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institutional responses to anomalies and

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exceptional human experiences and how

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they interact and enact within groups

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and large institutions such as the

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military for example now her life took

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her on the framework of UFO experience

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after an encounter in 1990 and she

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considers anomaly studies to be her true

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life's work and I know that she's had

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some unusual experiences as well before

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her first UFO experience so well I have

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definitely have to get her to talk about

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that as well we have Mike lowland now

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Mike is an outdoorsman in fact he's not

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just knock doors but he's an avid

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outdoorsman illustrator and UFO

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researcher he's written exclusively on

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the subject of alien abduction

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synchronicities and owls

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it was his first-hand experiences with

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these elusive events that have been the

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foundation for this research now his

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book the messengers owls synchronicity

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and the UFO abductee is a collection of

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first-hand accounts for owls manifest in

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the highly-charged moments that surround

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alien contact so Mike Susan thank you

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very much for being with us tonight

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on exploring the bizarre you know I'm

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I'm really excited that Susan is with a

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because just by coincidence and as Mike

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can tell you there is no such thing as

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coincidence it's all one synchronicity

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right after another but what did we

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finish this we get Tim we put the

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finishing touches in fact the book just

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came out yesterday it's called project

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magnet it's a nice one yeah it is about

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the the London life and research of a

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Canadian engineer by the name of Wilbur

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B Smith who actually now I would say

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that we've got to give a Canada the dibs

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on this because as early as 1950 they

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had set up a group kind of an unofficial

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samaya official group called the project

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magnet they had a little headquarters

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there and surely Bay I think it was and

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they actually had sightings of or they

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actually picked up with their

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instruments unidentified objects and one

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of them apparently came close to the

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structure but the the day on which they

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had this experience there was a cloud

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cover or a fog bank that came down and

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they were unable to see the object but

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they did detect it and feel its presence

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now also not only was this a project

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endorsed and I guess that paid for by

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the Canadian government I don't think it

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was a huge project and only lasted I

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think two years but they did get some

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very positive results and Wilbur Smith

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was very interested in the propulsion

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system of how you know how UFOs operated

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and furthermore he organized a group of

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UFO experiencers mainly the contactees

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in in those days who claimed that they

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had face-to-face encounters with the UFO

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beings and he would ask them a serious

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series of questions and see what

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response that they would give him back

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without knowing what the

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individuals as part of this survey we're

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telling him you know we're writing down

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and he found out that there was a

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pattern where most of these individuals

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or a good percentage of them were coming

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up with the same information and later

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on in life

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Wilbur himself claimed contact with the

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UFO beings he didn't speak about it a

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great deal but we did have on camera and

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grant a couple weeks ago who told about

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some of these experiences he had was

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privy to some information so it's a

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partly at least the Canadian Canadian

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show here this evening and Susan welcome

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to the to the program so you had a UFO

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experiences early on when I was 23

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that was my first UFO experience I guess

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I possibly had ones younger when I was a

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child but I was 23 when I actually had a

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UFO experience with another witness who

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was my brother-in-law and that sort of

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being an adult I was able to say yes and

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with another witness I'm actually

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experiencing something anomalous in the

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night sky and that sort of at that point

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changed my sort of worldview and kind of

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was I would I call an initiation almost

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into this UFO community into this UFO

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sort of frame of thinking and that's

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sort of where my my story began with

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UFOs but I didn't keep this on pins and

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needles here what exactly did you see

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and did it get close and did you have

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any sort of contact or communication

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with the object well I'll start sort of

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like from the beginning and it was a

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late evening and my brother-in-law and I

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were watching a show I think was a viral

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mistress of the dark of all things and

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it was November 4th 1990 and it was

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getting really late and at the time I

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lived on this 10th floor of this

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condominium upon this hill that

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overlooked Lake Ontario and towards the

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Nick the nuclear

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a power plant in Pickering and it was

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getting late the movie was starting to

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end and I walked out towards this

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balcony I had with these huge sliding

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glass doors and I had two very small

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children at the time and I was going to

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go lock the door and that was just the

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habit I was into every night and when I

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looked through the glass I saw this huge

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sort of red pulsing light in the sky and

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I had lived there for quite a long time

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at that point and I had never seen such

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a thing before and my first thought was

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that this is a reflection on the glass

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it's something coming off the TV because

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the TV was directly behind me and I

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looked at I looked at the glass again

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and I started realizing no this is this

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is something outside so I sort of I

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opened the sliding glass doors and I

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went out and I was looking at it for a

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few seconds I guess and and just sort of

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things were going through my mind what

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am I seeing this this huge strange red

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thing pulsing in the sky near the near

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the nuclear plant and and I find I

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called my brother-in-law I said you know

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you got to come out here and see this I

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don't what is this thing so he comes out

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and he was the first one to say I think

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I think we're seeing a UFO and I

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remember him sort of grabbing my arm and

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I looked down and I was getting all that

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goose flesh and I was just I was totally

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like in shock seeing this thing and then

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I wasn't until a time later that I

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remembered and I was able to confirm

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with him that I said during all of this

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they know we can see them and I had

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forgotten at that moment it was actually

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a while later that I remembered it and

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it was so strange and odd and I still

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really don't know why I thought that who

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they were or why I verbalized that but I

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did and shortly after that it seemed

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like this light to me anyway imploded in

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on itself and became very tiny and shot

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straight up into the sky now we stayed

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up all night long

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I didn't sleep that night neither did he

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we just sat up we talked about this we

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were talking about what could this be

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what could it not be I remember looking

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at the time when it had disappeared

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towards the street that was running

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parallel to where this the plant

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and Lake Ontario and I was thinking to

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myself there was one lone car up there

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it was about 1 o'clock in the morning

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and I thought this this person had to

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have seen this this thing was so huge

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and and I was looking in the next day at

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the newspapers I had the news on and

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this is this was 1990 pre-internet days

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so I didn't yeah I didn't have the

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internet to just jump on and find a UFO

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group and I had no concept of who I

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might contact I I already felt I can't

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call the police because there wasn't a

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crime that was committed ok

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I didn't know who to contact so it was a

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few weeks later that I was at the

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library and I got it a bunch of books on

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UFOs and I found dr. hynek's book and on

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the in the back of cover there was cue

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Phocis address so I wrote everything

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down and and I sent this letter off to

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Chicago and to Koufos and I guess the

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address had changed since the time of

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the publication I had no idea at this

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point that dr. Hynek had passed away and

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the letter a few weeks later came back

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to me undeliverable and that's where it

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kind of sat for me for about 6 or 7

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years until my kids got older and I

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never put this out of my mind over the

271
00:13:37,730 --> 00:13:35,579
over the years it just kind of was there

272
00:13:40,759 --> 00:13:37,740
and then in the late 1990s I actually

273
00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:40,769
started getting involved more with UFO

274
00:13:46,210 --> 00:13:42,930
groups the internet was going then I

275
00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:46,220
found MUFON and I started investigating

276
00:13:51,110 --> 00:13:49,050
UFOs at that point for myself like it

277
00:13:54,170 --> 00:13:51,120
never never really left my mind

278
00:13:56,929 --> 00:13:54,180
so would you say the objects seemed to

279
00:13:59,720 --> 00:13:56,939
implode on itself did you hear it

280
00:14:02,540 --> 00:13:59,730
whether it was already sound at all no

281
00:14:04,670 --> 00:14:02,550
none at all and and that was one of the

282
00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:04,680
things that I was I that had popped in

283
00:14:09,049 --> 00:14:06,569
my mind is like this is not a helicopter

284
00:14:10,879 --> 00:14:09,059
this is not a this is not a plane

285
00:14:12,319 --> 00:14:10,889
because it was it was pulsating but it

286
00:14:14,629 --> 00:14:12,329
was almost stationary and it was right

287
00:14:17,030 --> 00:14:14,639
near that plant and then later on I did

288
00:14:19,460 --> 00:14:17,040
find out that there were many sightings

289
00:14:23,059 --> 00:14:19,470
involving not only just that nuclear

290
00:14:24,769 --> 00:14:23,069
power plant but many uh well let's

291
00:14:27,559 --> 00:14:24,779
imagine that you're looking at the full

292
00:14:30,170 --> 00:14:27,569
moon if you were to compare the object

293
00:14:32,870 --> 00:14:30,180
that you saw to the moon how big would

294
00:14:35,500 --> 00:14:32,880
it be in comparison to the to the lunar

295
00:14:37,990 --> 00:14:35,510
body at a full moon it was

296
00:14:43,540 --> 00:14:38,000
probably comparable in size it was quite

297
00:14:46,870 --> 00:14:43,550
large it was it was very big III didn't

298
00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:46,880
investigate it myself but MUFON did

299
00:14:52,450 --> 00:14:49,850
investigate that sighting that I had but

300
00:14:54,250 --> 00:14:52,460
it was several years later that that was

301
00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:54,260
sort of investigated and I think this

302
00:14:58,030 --> 00:14:56,330
size I forget the exact size now that it

303
00:15:00,400 --> 00:14:58,040
was estimated but it was quite large

304
00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:00,410
like theirs in my mind there was no way

305
00:15:05,230 --> 00:15:01,850
that people other people couldn't have

306
00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:05,240
seen it but nobody did as far as you

307
00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:08,090
know nobody did as far as I know and

308
00:15:13,510 --> 00:15:10,610
I've had that sighting online since

309
00:15:15,370 --> 00:15:13,520
about 1990 and I've had people write to

310
00:15:16,900 --> 00:15:15,380
me saying that oh you know I've seen

311
00:15:19,060 --> 00:15:16,910
things around the plant and I they've

312
00:15:21,670 --> 00:15:19,070
shared their own experiences but none

313
00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:21,680
for that specific thing well you know

314
00:15:26,290 --> 00:15:24,290
we've had numerous cases and you

315
00:15:28,420 --> 00:15:26,300
probably realize this where there could

316
00:15:30,580 --> 00:15:28,430
be two or three witnesses you know out

317
00:15:32,860 --> 00:15:30,590
looking at the sky and some people will

318
00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:32,870
see something and other people will see

319
00:15:39,670 --> 00:15:36,770
nothing yeah III don't know I mean I

320
00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:39,680
remember a case up in the Pine Bush New

321
00:15:44,230 --> 00:15:41,810
York about a hour and a half here from

322
00:15:46,870 --> 00:15:44,240
New York witnesses claiming that they

323
00:15:49,420 --> 00:15:46,880
were watching these giant crosses in the

324
00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:49,430
sky and we were to about two blocks away

325
00:15:55,150 --> 00:15:51,290
and there's no way that these objects

326
00:15:57,430 --> 00:15:55,160
could have passed over us without us

327
00:15:58,810 --> 00:15:57,440
having seen them I mean if they were as

328
00:16:00,970 --> 00:15:58,820
big as the witnesses saying that they

329
00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:00,980
were but yet there is no indication that

330
00:16:04,990 --> 00:16:02,930
any of the witnesses were lying because

331
00:16:07,630 --> 00:16:05,000
some of them even had the photographic

332
00:16:10,570 --> 00:16:07,640
proof that they had seen something well

333
00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:10,580
sure sure there's a every massive case

334
00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:14,210
that happened I think with a but two or

335
00:16:18,700 --> 00:16:16,490
three days after in it was same

336
00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:18,710
timeframe without the week and it was in

337
00:16:24,820 --> 00:16:21,290
Montreal and in this case there was this

338
00:16:26,470 --> 00:16:24,830
large sort of spacecraft like thing that

339
00:16:30,100 --> 00:16:26,480
people were describing that appeared

340
00:16:32,470 --> 00:16:30,110
downtown Montreal over a hotel and there

341
00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:32,480
must have been at least 6070 witnesses

342
00:16:36,580 --> 00:16:34,490
but all the witnesses seemed to be on

343
00:16:39,130 --> 00:16:36,590
the top of this hotel there was some

344
00:16:42,940 --> 00:16:39,140
sort of party that was going on actually

345
00:16:45,580 --> 00:16:42,950
there's a there's a TV documentary would

346
00:16:47,830 --> 00:16:45,590
you like a in search of I think maybe

347
00:16:49,540 --> 00:16:47,840
it's a it's on Netflix or somewhere now

348
00:16:51,730 --> 00:16:49,550
and I never heard about

349
00:16:53,889 --> 00:16:51,740
the case myself but it's a real good

350
00:16:56,079 --> 00:16:53,899
case by all means yeah yeah and you'd

351
00:16:58,660 --> 00:16:56,089
think that people that but that's the

352
00:17:00,820 --> 00:16:58,670
thing people on this other side of the

353
00:17:03,730 --> 00:17:00,830
street people that were on the street

354
00:17:05,199 --> 00:17:03,740
none of these people saw this yet you

355
00:17:07,030 --> 00:17:05,209
had you know and you should have had

356
00:17:08,890 --> 00:17:07,040
maybe hundreds of thousands of people

357
00:17:10,809 --> 00:17:08,900
because this is downtown of a major

358
00:17:12,250 --> 00:17:10,819
urban center it would be the same thing

359
00:17:14,199 --> 00:17:12,260
as if it appeared you know over New York

360
00:17:16,299 --> 00:17:14,209
City you would expect thousands upon

361
00:17:18,340 --> 00:17:16,309
thousands of witnesses but no it was

362
00:17:21,010 --> 00:17:18,350
very much concentrated to these this

363
00:17:25,540 --> 00:17:21,020
group of people about 60 70 people on

364
00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:25,550
top of this hotel and and yet and so I

365
00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:28,250
mean it was there but well they even

366
00:17:32,500 --> 00:17:30,410
there was even photographs taken yeah of

367
00:17:35,770 --> 00:17:32,510
that of that Avantika I remember when

368
00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:35,780
where it happened yeah but this seems to

369
00:17:40,299 --> 00:17:37,250
be the case like in all sorts of

370
00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:40,309
different paranormal type experience

371
00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:42,170
it's it's also the case with haunted

372
00:17:47,799 --> 00:17:44,690
houses where you can have maybe a room

373
00:17:49,630 --> 00:17:47,809
of four or five people and and maybe two

374
00:17:51,970 --> 00:17:49,640
people might see an apparition and

375
00:17:54,970 --> 00:17:51,980
someone else might see a shadow and then

376
00:17:57,130 --> 00:17:54,980
two other people will see nothing so I I

377
00:17:58,780 --> 00:17:57,140
mean I don't know what that exactly

378
00:18:00,340 --> 00:17:58,790
tells us about the nature of the

379
00:18:02,260 --> 00:18:00,350
phenomena itself or the various

380
00:18:04,810 --> 00:18:02,270
phenomena but it is it is an interesting

381
00:18:07,510 --> 00:18:04,820
thing about it but you know people do

382
00:18:10,330 --> 00:18:07,520
perceive things differently well since

383
00:18:12,730 --> 00:18:10,340
you brought up a paranormal events now

384
00:18:14,919 --> 00:18:12,740
you had but I guess would be called

385
00:18:15,460 --> 00:18:14,929
paranormal events when when you were a

386
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:15,470
child

387
00:18:23,260 --> 00:18:21,290
alright yes I did I first I guess the

388
00:18:25,780 --> 00:18:23,270
first that I can remember was I was

389
00:18:28,090 --> 00:18:25,790
about five or six years old and I had an

390
00:18:33,130 --> 00:18:28,100
experience where I saw this sort of

391
00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:33,140
little little man dwarfed like being I

392
00:18:38,980 --> 00:18:36,530
guess and at the time I think because my

393
00:18:41,169 --> 00:18:38,990
only real concept of the paranormal or

394
00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:41,179
strange things was probably Scooby Doo I

395
00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:43,850
just I assumed that these little things

396
00:18:50,620 --> 00:18:46,250
were ghosts and I had more than one

397
00:18:53,380 --> 00:18:50,630
experience with them and and later on I

398
00:18:55,180 --> 00:18:53,390
I thought to myself that they were you

399
00:18:57,370 --> 00:18:55,190
know this is just childhood imagination

400
00:18:59,290 --> 00:18:57,380
what happened during that period as a

401
00:19:02,740 --> 00:18:59,300
child as I would get quite frightened

402
00:19:04,450 --> 00:19:02,750
and I was a very imaginative child and

403
00:19:06,460 --> 00:19:04,460
I would have this wolf that would come

404
00:19:09,610 --> 00:19:06,470
in on the scene and sort of protect me

405
00:19:10,990 --> 00:19:09,620
like come up to my bed and the wolf

406
00:19:13,030 --> 00:19:11,000
would talk to me and it was sort of

407
00:19:15,490 --> 00:19:13,040
scare these these little men away and

408
00:19:17,650 --> 00:19:15,500
then later on as as as a younger adult

409
00:19:19,780 --> 00:19:17,660
and I was getting into psychology I've

410
00:19:21,910 --> 00:19:19,790
kind of figured I you know I was the

411
00:19:24,820 --> 00:19:21,920
wolf I created this wolf to protect

412
00:19:26,020 --> 00:19:24,830
myself and and at that time I like I

413
00:19:28,150 --> 00:19:26,030
said as a child I thought that these

414
00:19:29,620 --> 00:19:28,160
were these were ghosts but it wasn't

415
00:19:32,260 --> 00:19:29,630
until later when I started getting into

416
00:19:33,580 --> 00:19:32,270
UFOs and getting into UFO experience

417
00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:33,590
that I kind of considered well maybe

418
00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:36,170
maybe these little dwarf like men were

419
00:19:41,830 --> 00:19:38,930
not ghosts maybe they were related to

420
00:19:43,270 --> 00:19:41,840
UFOs or and now now I'm sort of in a

421
00:19:44,740 --> 00:19:43,280
situation where I think maybe they're

422
00:19:46,420 --> 00:19:44,750
all somehow interconnected are

423
00:19:48,070 --> 00:19:46,430
interrelated through the paranormal

424
00:19:52,810 --> 00:19:48,080
experience or exceptional human

425
00:19:55,270 --> 00:19:52,820
experience but but yeah ghosts UFOs what

426
00:19:58,780 --> 00:19:55,280
difference does it make it's a lay

427
00:20:01,870 --> 00:19:58,790
they're all the same right exactly well

428
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:01,880
without wood did do these beans I mean

429
00:20:09,370 --> 00:20:06,530
were they like you were watching there

430
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:09,380
were they watching you I mean did were

431
00:20:13,150 --> 00:20:11,210
they obvious obviously that you know

432
00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:13,160
they were there knew you were there to

433
00:20:17,830 --> 00:20:15,890
me they appeared like solid actual sort

434
00:20:20,230 --> 00:20:17,840
of beings but something somewhere in my

435
00:20:22,120 --> 00:20:20,240
intuition my heart I knew that they

436
00:20:24,820 --> 00:20:22,130
weren't and that other people weren't

437
00:20:26,710 --> 00:20:24,830
necessarily seeing them and they did

438
00:20:29,110 --> 00:20:26,720
sort of unnerved me and frightened me I

439
00:20:31,090 --> 00:20:29,120
but they seemed to be like solid like as

440
00:20:33,430 --> 00:20:31,100
if you would see an actual person like

441
00:20:35,050 --> 00:20:33,440
and then that sort of presence is if you

442
00:20:37,150 --> 00:20:35,060
you know how when someone is standing

443
00:20:39,010 --> 00:20:37,160
beside you you feel that someone is

444
00:20:40,570 --> 00:20:39,020
there even if they're not touching you

445
00:20:42,790 --> 00:20:40,580
you just sort of feel them in that sort

446
00:20:46,030 --> 00:20:42,800
of space and that's how they appeared to

447
00:20:48,490 --> 00:20:46,040
me well did they did they try to

448
00:20:50,650 --> 00:20:48,500
interact with you I guess is what what I

449
00:20:53,470 --> 00:20:50,660
was starting to say oh they seem to be

450
00:20:55,660 --> 00:20:53,480
aware of me they didn't seem to be

451
00:20:57,550 --> 00:20:55,670
necessarily causing harm but I was

452
00:20:59,620 --> 00:20:57,560
frightened of them I would close my eyes

453
00:21:02,830 --> 00:20:59,630
I would try to stay away and then this I

454
00:21:04,450 --> 00:21:02,840
eventually I had an experience when my

455
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:04,460
grandmother was staying with us my

456
00:21:09,370 --> 00:21:06,170
parents had gone away to Europe or

457
00:21:11,410 --> 00:21:09,380
something they were traveling and and I

458
00:21:14,710 --> 00:21:11,420
had this experience where this little

459
00:21:15,590 --> 00:21:14,720
being seemed to pop out and sit up on my

460
00:21:18,740 --> 00:21:15,600
bed really

461
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:18,750
scared me and and this wolf like I said

462
00:21:23,270 --> 00:21:20,610
appeared and just sort of chased them

463
00:21:26,450 --> 00:21:23,280
away like they would they would just

464
00:21:29,900 --> 00:21:26,460
literally like scatter away the wolf was

465
00:21:32,060 --> 00:21:29,910
like a psychic avatar almost yes and

466
00:21:34,510 --> 00:21:32,070
like I said it was I thought it was an

467
00:21:37,070 --> 00:21:34,520
actual separate being this this this

468
00:21:39,529 --> 00:21:37,080
protector but then later on I sort of

469
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:39,539
came to the the idea that the wolf was

470
00:21:43,909 --> 00:21:42,210
me that I was creating the wolf so out

471
00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:43,919
of my own imagination it sort of popped

472
00:21:47,750 --> 00:21:45,690
up and it was dealing with these these

473
00:21:49,940 --> 00:21:47,760
little dwarfee things that like I said

474
00:21:52,039 --> 00:21:49,950
and they didn't cause me harm

475
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:52,049
but as a child of course I was

476
00:21:55,820 --> 00:21:53,850
frightened I knew that they weren't

477
00:21:57,560 --> 00:21:55,830
really supposed to be part of the

478
00:22:00,500 --> 00:21:57,570
reality that I was living but they were

479
00:22:02,810 --> 00:22:00,510
there a brad Steiger you know he talks

480
00:22:05,779 --> 00:22:02,820
about how when he was a kid he you know

481
00:22:07,669 --> 00:22:05,789
he was lying in bed one night and he was

482
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:07,679
looking out of his window and the way

483
00:22:13,220 --> 00:22:09,570
that they his house was shaped he could

484
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:13,230
see the kitchen window where his parents

485
00:22:16,279 --> 00:22:14,730
were in there talking and he said that

486
00:22:19,370 --> 00:22:16,289
there was a little man you know he

487
00:22:21,260 --> 00:22:19,380
described almost as like a like a fairy

488
00:22:22,490 --> 00:22:21,270
or brownie or a leprechaun type of

489
00:22:25,549 --> 00:22:22,500
creature that was standing on his

490
00:22:28,279 --> 00:22:25,559
tiptoes peering into the window at his

491
00:22:31,370 --> 00:22:28,289
parents so I mean you know you see that

492
00:22:33,289 --> 00:22:31,380
a lot you know these kinds of

493
00:22:36,020 --> 00:22:33,299
experiences with children who then you

494
00:22:39,350 --> 00:22:36,030
know later on will go on and have yeah

495
00:22:41,750 --> 00:22:39,360
UFO experiences or vice versa people who

496
00:22:44,779 --> 00:22:41,760
have UFO experiences will then have you

497
00:22:46,310 --> 00:22:44,789
know start seeing these you know for one

498
00:22:48,980 --> 00:22:46,320
of a better word you know almost like

499
00:22:52,610 --> 00:22:48,990
supernatural entities coming out of

500
00:22:57,020 --> 00:22:52,620
their closet or you know their bed yes

501
00:22:59,000 --> 00:22:57,030
it seems to be interconnected I often I

502
00:23:01,039 --> 00:22:59,010
have had the experience as from the

503
00:23:02,990 --> 00:23:01,049
other side is that as a researcher going

504
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:03,000
and talking to people and they'll be

505
00:23:07,130 --> 00:23:04,530
telling me about what seems like a real

506
00:23:09,110 --> 00:23:07,140
sort of nuts and bolts UFO type story

507
00:23:10,940 --> 00:23:09,120
but when I meet with them in person then

508
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:10,950
they start relating you know I grew up

509
00:23:16,130 --> 00:23:14,010
in a haunted house or you know I I've

510
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:16,140
had other experiences or people within

511
00:23:19,580 --> 00:23:18,210
their family alright we're gonna have to

512
00:23:21,169 --> 00:23:19,590
interrupt you here because it's time to

513
00:23:21,900 --> 00:23:21,179
go to our bottom with the be our break

514
00:23:23,970 --> 00:23:21,910
so we'll be

515
00:23:28,830 --> 00:23:23,980
back in just a few minutes but exploring

516
00:23:31,290 --> 00:23:28,840
the bazaar now back to exploring the

517
00:23:33,660 --> 00:23:31,300
bazaars with two of the most

518
00:23:36,950 --> 00:23:33,670
electrifying researchers in the Paranoid

519
00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:36,960
your hosts Timothy Becky Lee panting

520
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:42,370
sports and welcome back to exploring the

521
00:23:51,150 --> 00:23:47,890
bazaar tonight we are talking about UFOs

522
00:23:53,730 --> 00:23:51,160
and kind of the the strange more

523
00:23:56,490 --> 00:23:53,740
stranger aspects about the whole

524
00:23:58,230 --> 00:23:56,500
phenomena so Tim what are we bring my

525
00:24:00,690 --> 00:23:58,240
clothing into the conversation he's been

526
00:24:04,260 --> 00:24:00,700
patiently waiting in the wings and I

527
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:04,270
think it's it's it's time to to let him

528
00:24:09,570 --> 00:24:07,170
talk weasel well indeed he's written up

529
00:24:13,230 --> 00:24:09,580
there's some really good information

530
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:13,240
good good books on the synchronicities

531
00:24:18,510 --> 00:24:15,610
and UFOs and his own experiences which

532
00:24:20,370 --> 00:24:18,520
go back I guess to his childhood yeah

533
00:24:23,900 --> 00:24:20,380
well the thing I want to know Mike is

534
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:23,910
that because I've seen a number of your

535
00:24:29,370 --> 00:24:25,890
previous books you know about

536
00:24:32,580 --> 00:24:29,380
backpacking and and things like that and

537
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:32,590
so what took you I mean have have you

538
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:36,010
always had an interest in UFOs and

539
00:24:41,370 --> 00:24:38,050
strange things and just you know finally

540
00:24:43,170 --> 00:24:41,380
saw the opportunity or just you know

541
00:24:46,380 --> 00:24:43,180
what's a situation that just got you

542
00:24:49,110 --> 00:24:46,390
into it um well you know well I I was

543
00:24:51,660 --> 00:24:49,120
the perfect age to have grown up right

544
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:51,670
around the time of in search of with

545
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:53,970
Leonard Nimoy and there was a series of

546
00:25:00,630 --> 00:24:57,010
kind of early 70s television shows there

547
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:00,640
really yeah yeah like lit my foot the

548
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:05,890
fire for me and OH in the the time-life

549
00:25:10,470 --> 00:25:08,050
series they did a Time Life series they

550
00:25:13,730 --> 00:25:10,480
did a books on the paranormal and UFOs

551
00:25:16,290 --> 00:25:13,740
and in ancient mysteries and such so um

552
00:25:18,540 --> 00:25:16,300
so you know I never had much more than a

553
00:25:21,090 --> 00:25:18,550
cursory interest of it in it and

554
00:25:24,030 --> 00:25:21,100
although similar to what sue described

555
00:25:27,180 --> 00:25:24,040
in my youth I I had a very clear UFO

556
00:25:29,790 --> 00:25:27,190
sighting this happened at night and I

557
00:25:31,909 --> 00:25:29,800
was with a friend and there was

558
00:25:34,740 --> 00:25:31,919
something

559
00:25:37,710 --> 00:25:34,750
outside a window it's interesting she

560
00:25:39,450 --> 00:25:37,720
said that she thought it might have been

561
00:25:41,639 --> 00:25:39,460
a reflection from something behind them

562
00:25:42,269 --> 00:25:41,649
and I have racked my brain trying to

563
00:25:43,649 --> 00:25:42,279
figure out whether there was a

564
00:25:45,690 --> 00:25:43,659
reflection of something behind me and I

565
00:25:47,850 --> 00:25:45,700
have to say that no it could not have

566
00:25:48,990 --> 00:25:47,860
been we ran right up to the glass and

567
00:25:51,060 --> 00:25:49,000
looked outside and there was something

568
00:25:53,669 --> 00:25:51,070
about this like this size and Shh well

569
00:25:56,549 --> 00:25:53,679
the the shape of a coffee can descending

570
00:25:59,549 --> 00:25:56,559
at this really odd in this really odd

571
00:26:03,180 --> 00:25:59,559
unusual way like was too smooth it was

572
00:26:06,299 --> 00:26:03,190
gliding too smooth to be a plane made

573
00:26:10,230 --> 00:26:06,309
this very kind of I almost want to say

574
00:26:11,700 --> 00:26:10,240
like artificial kind of rotation um we

575
00:26:13,919 --> 00:26:11,710
watched it for about 30 seconds and poof

576
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:13,929
it was gone and and then both me and my

577
00:26:19,289 --> 00:26:15,490
friend we ran downstairs we were both 12

578
00:26:21,870 --> 00:26:19,299
years old this would have been 1974 and

579
00:26:24,060 --> 00:26:21,880
we both drew it and we pretty much drew

580
00:26:25,529 --> 00:26:24,070
the identical thing and and and I still

581
00:26:27,330 --> 00:26:25,539
have that drawing from being a little

582
00:26:29,310 --> 00:26:27,340
boy I've since become a much more

583
00:26:36,269 --> 00:26:29,320
skilled illustrator and I've redrawn it

584
00:26:38,070 --> 00:26:36,279
now so that that event allowed me as a

585
00:26:40,740 --> 00:26:38,080
12 year old boy - you know when watching

586
00:26:44,340 --> 00:26:40,750
in search of for you know something I'm

587
00:26:49,049 --> 00:26:44,350
reading a you know a book by um oh I

588
00:26:50,430 --> 00:26:49,059
read Frank Edwards book as a little boy

589
00:26:52,230 --> 00:26:50,440
which was actually the first big fat

590
00:26:53,669 --> 00:26:52,240
book it's called a UFO serious business

591
00:26:55,289 --> 00:26:53,679
by Frank Edwards and you know you know I

592
00:26:57,120 --> 00:26:55,299
kind of was like you know I can't

593
00:27:02,340 --> 00:26:57,130
dismiss this stuff because I've seen my

594
00:27:04,019 --> 00:27:02,350
own thing and you know so that was kind

595
00:27:07,620 --> 00:27:04,029
of the foundation for me as a little boy

596
00:27:10,889 --> 00:27:07,630
I guess so

597
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:10,899
what's I just have to ask before we're

598
00:27:16,710 --> 00:27:13,090
going to this uh what's been the

599
00:27:20,070 --> 00:27:16,720
reaction to people who were your

600
00:27:21,930 --> 00:27:20,080
followers with your you know like your

601
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:21,940
backpacking books and things like that

602
00:27:27,930 --> 00:27:24,610
with this kind of like this new venture

603
00:27:30,299 --> 00:27:27,940
about UFOs I mean you know if you got

604
00:27:32,850 --> 00:27:30,309
any criticism or people like yeah we're

605
00:27:34,049 --> 00:27:32,860
glad to see you talking about this it's

606
00:27:36,049 --> 00:27:34,059
very strange

607
00:27:40,049 --> 00:27:36,059
you know it is there's been absolutely

608
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:40,059
close to zero crossover between the two

609
00:27:44,430 --> 00:27:42,730
and so I have a handful of books out

610
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:44,440
mostly that were illustrations I've got

611
00:27:45,780 --> 00:27:44,770
like

612
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:45,790
probably when you count them out this

613
00:27:49,590 --> 00:27:47,530
bike to over 20 books that I've done

614
00:27:51,540 --> 00:27:49,600
illustrations for and all those books

615
00:27:54,270 --> 00:27:51,550
have an you know mountaineering

616
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:54,280
backpacking skiing climbing theme I was

617
00:27:58,680 --> 00:27:56,650
doing that was my bread and butter for

618
00:28:01,080 --> 00:27:58,690
you know over a decade was doing those

619
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:01,090
kind of illustrations that got all

620
00:28:05,190 --> 00:28:03,010
completely sidetracked when I started

621
00:28:07,050 --> 00:28:05,200
when I fell into UFO research but um

622
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:07,060
yeah you know honestly it doesn't cross

623
00:28:09,690 --> 00:28:08,410
over at all every once in a while

624
00:28:11,610 --> 00:28:09,700
someone will say are you the same

625
00:28:13,590 --> 00:28:11,620
myclone that did the the you know the

626
00:28:15,210 --> 00:28:13,600
cartoon ski book and I'm like yep that's

627
00:28:17,210 --> 00:28:15,220
me they're like it's really interesting

628
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:17,220
idea I got high of both those books so

629
00:28:21,900 --> 00:28:20,050
it's more that the people who have the

630
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:21,910
UFO books excuse me to have the

631
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:25,210
backpacking books will occasionally get

632
00:28:29,220 --> 00:28:27,250
it at UFO bouken and then realize that

633
00:28:32,700 --> 00:28:29,230
I'm the same the same guy so yeah

634
00:28:35,220 --> 00:28:32,710
there's almost no crossover at all all

635
00:28:40,170 --> 00:28:35,230
right so walk us through then I mean

636
00:28:42,270 --> 00:28:40,180
what was the catalyst then that started

637
00:28:45,540 --> 00:28:42,280
you on the path that eventually led to

638
00:28:47,930 --> 00:28:45,550
the book the messengers the hold the

639
00:28:53,700 --> 00:28:47,940
owls and synchronicity

640
00:28:55,710 --> 00:28:53,710
the catalyst was a so along with that

641
00:28:58,200 --> 00:28:55,720
UFO sighting I had a missing time

642
00:29:00,750 --> 00:28:58,210
experience when I was right around that

643
00:29:02,670 --> 00:29:00,760
same age about two hours really an

644
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:02,680
unusual light in the nighttime sky it

645
00:29:07,980 --> 00:29:05,170
felt like a God switch to flip the light

646
00:29:10,350 --> 00:29:07,990
switch and turned the sky bright orange

647
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:10,360
for one second and click turn it right

648
00:29:13,860 --> 00:29:12,370
back off and then I got home and I was

649
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:13,870
parents from it mom and dad were mad at

650
00:29:16,890 --> 00:29:14,890
me and like what do you mad at me for

651
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:16,900
and like I'm home on time and they're

652
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:18,730
like you or not it's 11:30 at night and

653
00:29:26,190 --> 00:29:20,290
it wasn't it should have been 9:30 at

654
00:29:31,500 --> 00:29:26,200
night um so and then I had a when I was

655
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:31,510
30 which was now it's good grief that's

656
00:29:39,660 --> 00:29:38,650
25 years ago now um I had a I woke up in

657
00:29:41,070 --> 00:29:39,670
the middle of the night and sat up in

658
00:29:43,650 --> 00:29:41,080
bed and looked out the window and there

659
00:29:45,990 --> 00:29:43,660
were five grey aliens backlit by this

660
00:29:47,250 --> 00:29:46,000
really bright light in my yard I'm

661
00:29:48,420 --> 00:29:47,260
saying it kind of whimsically now

662
00:29:50,430 --> 00:29:48,430
because I've told this story so many

663
00:29:54,870 --> 00:29:50,440
times but it was pretty unsettling at

664
00:29:56,550 --> 00:29:54,880
the time I have to say and that and then

665
00:29:58,590 --> 00:29:56,560
I heard a voice in my head that said now

666
00:30:00,419 --> 00:29:58,600
is the time to put your head on the

667
00:30:02,130 --> 00:30:00,429
hello and shut down and that's exactly

668
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:02,140
what I did and I should have panicked I

669
00:30:06,390 --> 00:30:03,730
should have locked the doors I should

670
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:06,400
have done anything except calmly go back

671
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:07,570
to sleep

672
00:30:11,370 --> 00:30:09,610
the next morning I dismissed it all as a

673
00:30:13,799 --> 00:30:11,380
dream and never even went outside to see

674
00:30:17,340 --> 00:30:13,809
if there were footprints in the snow so

675
00:30:21,270 --> 00:30:17,350
those experiences were kind of simmering

676
00:30:23,250 --> 00:30:21,280
in my you know they had been at the you

677
00:30:24,330 --> 00:30:23,260
know on the back burner mm-hmm kind of

678
00:30:26,850 --> 00:30:24,340
pulled him up towards the front burner

679
00:30:29,730 --> 00:30:26,860
by the about 2006 that's when I was 45

680
00:30:32,250 --> 00:30:29,740
years old or so that's 10 years ago 44

681
00:30:34,890 --> 00:30:32,260
years ago we have 44 years old of 10 11

682
00:30:36,990 --> 00:30:34,900
years ago and I went out camping for one

683
00:30:38,310 --> 00:30:37,000
night with with a friend an acquaintance

684
00:30:40,470 --> 00:30:38,320
someone I really didn't know I was

685
00:30:43,500 --> 00:30:40,480
living near a Grand Teton National Park

686
00:30:44,730 --> 00:30:43,510
in Yellowstone and you know it's this

687
00:30:46,260 --> 00:30:44,740
kind of thing you do you just go out and

688
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:46,270
lovely weather you just let spend a

689
00:30:48,659 --> 00:30:47,530
night in the mountains yeah let's run

690
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:48,669
out there so you just take his little

691
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:50,770
gear as you can and you hike fast you

692
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:52,210
get to a beautiful spot sleep under the

693
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:54,250
stars you turn around the next morning

694
00:31:00,720 --> 00:30:56,770
and come back and it's just so rewarding

695
00:31:02,490 --> 00:31:00,730
and I loved it I loved it and um and I

696
00:31:04,500 --> 00:31:02,500
invited this friend her name was Kristin

697
00:31:06,270 --> 00:31:04,510
as I said I hardly knew her at all I

698
00:31:08,909 --> 00:31:06,280
said we should go out camping for one

699
00:31:13,169 --> 00:31:08,919
night and we did and we she and I were

700
00:31:14,370 --> 00:31:13,179
sitting down and talking about well this

701
00:31:15,779 --> 00:31:14,380
is interesting cuz she was talking about

702
00:31:17,130 --> 00:31:15,789
something and at the moment in the

703
00:31:19,340 --> 00:31:17,140
moment that this is really interesting

704
00:31:22,620 --> 00:31:19,350
this is really powerful I'm really

705
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:22,630
impressed like I didn't expect this so

706
00:31:27,690 --> 00:31:24,010
stranger I didn't expect her to be

707
00:31:29,399 --> 00:31:27,700
talking about something so powerful and

708
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:29,409
at that moment an owl flew over us and

709
00:31:35,010 --> 00:31:31,330
then another owl and then a third owl

710
00:31:37,590 --> 00:31:35,020
and for the next well over an hour these

711
00:31:39,810 --> 00:31:37,600
owls flew above us and the Sun said and

712
00:31:41,610 --> 00:31:39,820
the moon rose and it was gorgeous and we

713
00:31:43,919 --> 00:31:41,620
lied we were laying down on our backs

714
00:31:44,940 --> 00:31:43,929
looking up at the sky just no shelter it

715
00:31:48,419 --> 00:31:44,950
was beautiful calm night in the

716
00:31:50,610 --> 00:31:48,429
mountains and these owls would like

717
00:31:53,220 --> 00:31:50,620
swooped right right across our faces and

718
00:31:57,299 --> 00:31:53,230
blot the Stars out for just one second

719
00:31:58,830 --> 00:31:57,309
it was really magical few days

720
00:32:00,450 --> 00:31:58,840
afterwards would be like wow that was

721
00:32:01,770 --> 00:32:00,460
really great let's and I said listen if

722
00:32:02,970 --> 00:32:01,780
I ever go camping again I do this all

723
00:32:05,250 --> 00:32:02,980
the time I'll just give you a call she

724
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:05,260
said you give me a call please so I

725
00:32:08,970 --> 00:32:06,730
called her a few days later and the same

726
00:32:11,130 --> 00:32:08,980
thing happened it's something that three

727
00:32:11,990 --> 00:32:11,140
owls flew above us landed near us this

728
00:32:16,610 --> 00:32:12,000
time

729
00:32:18,890 --> 00:32:16,620
like invaded our personal space let me

730
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:18,900
put it that way I'm they were right up

731
00:32:23,510 --> 00:32:21,450
next to us they landed right up next to

732
00:32:24,890 --> 00:32:23,520
us it felt like you know felt like the

733
00:32:26,270 --> 00:32:24,900
universe was saying like hey you dummy

734
00:32:28,190 --> 00:32:26,280
you know like you didn't get the message

735
00:32:30,290 --> 00:32:28,200
of first time like you know like so

736
00:32:31,940 --> 00:32:30,300
these and I'm convinced as silly as this

737
00:32:33,950 --> 00:32:31,950
sounds I'm convinced it's the same three

738
00:32:38,420 --> 00:32:33,960
owls we were in a completely different

739
00:32:40,580 --> 00:32:38,430
part of the mountains now I never said

740
00:32:43,100 --> 00:32:40,590
it then I'm saying it now in the moment

741
00:32:45,820 --> 00:32:43,110
both times seeing those owls I had a

742
00:32:48,380 --> 00:32:45,830
thought in my head as clear as a bell

743
00:32:50,630 --> 00:32:48,390
that said this has something to do with

744
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:50,640
the UFOs so you asked what the catalyst

745
00:32:56,030 --> 00:32:54,690
was after these events I started looking

746
00:32:58,220 --> 00:32:56,040
into my own experiences you know my

747
00:33:00,770 --> 00:32:58,230
those UFO experiences and the beings out

748
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:00,780
the window and the missing time all were

749
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:05,010
just like a simmering pot on the stove

750
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:07,890
and the and at that point the lid

751
00:33:10,610 --> 00:33:09,090
started a rattle

752
00:33:12,380 --> 00:33:10,620
you know the boiling got a little more

753
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:12,390
oppressive and I had to deal with it and

754
00:33:16,190 --> 00:33:14,370
that's so you ask the catalyst the

755
00:33:18,380 --> 00:33:16,200
catalyst was seeing those owls there's

756
00:33:21,770 --> 00:33:18,390
no UFOs in the story but that was the

757
00:33:23,690 --> 00:33:21,780
catalyst now I started an online blog

758
00:33:26,180 --> 00:33:23,700
worded my initial posts were all about

759
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:26,190
you know synchronicities and I wrote

760
00:33:28,850 --> 00:33:27,450
that story that I just told that you

761
00:33:32,060 --> 00:33:28,860
told you with the one with seeing the

762
00:33:34,460 --> 00:33:32,070
owls with this woman Kristen and then

763
00:33:36,500 --> 00:33:34,470
after I posted it I got back to her and

764
00:33:38,270 --> 00:33:36,510
I said listen what were we talking about

765
00:33:41,690 --> 00:33:38,280
in that moment right before we saw the

766
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:41,700
first owl on that first night and she

767
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:43,050
said oh I remember exactly what I was

768
00:33:47,750 --> 00:33:45,090
talking about I was trying to give my

769
00:33:51,230 --> 00:33:47,760
most heartfelt definition of what God

770
00:33:53,300 --> 00:33:51,240
means to me and this is like one of

771
00:33:54,350 --> 00:33:53,310
those details I mean soon was started

772
00:33:56,330 --> 00:33:54,360
talking about the Stewie gets these

773
00:33:59,030 --> 00:33:56,340
details that there's this weird aspect

774
00:34:01,460 --> 00:33:59,040
to it that kind of that kind of our way

775
00:34:03,230 --> 00:34:01,470
out of out of out beyond the boundaries

776
00:34:06,230 --> 00:34:03,240
of what would be a you know like a nuts

777
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:06,240
and bolts experience there's something

778
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:09,570
more bizarre more mystical going on so

779
00:34:15,169 --> 00:34:13,290
so that detail about and I'm not like at

780
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:15,179
all churchy or any in any way shape or

781
00:34:21,379 --> 00:34:19,290
form but I did I did realize and and

782
00:34:24,930 --> 00:34:21,389
understand that this had something to do

783
00:34:26,430 --> 00:34:24,940
with with something much

784
00:34:27,990 --> 00:34:26,440
more mystical right in the moment in

785
00:34:30,599 --> 00:34:28,000
those two events those two separate

786
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:30,609
camping trips for days apart

787
00:34:36,419 --> 00:34:33,970
three owls each time like pushed me off

788
00:34:38,849 --> 00:34:36,429
a cliff I was suddenly confronted with

789
00:34:41,490 --> 00:34:38,859
so many synchronicities in so many owl

790
00:34:43,290 --> 00:34:41,500
sightings I spent a few years like

791
00:34:45,210 --> 00:34:43,300
really questioning my sanity the stuff

792
00:34:48,210 --> 00:34:45,220
was coming in so hard and so fast and

793
00:34:49,619 --> 00:34:48,220
and during that time I started to do UFO

794
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:49,629
research and part of the research was on

795
00:34:54,300 --> 00:34:52,450
myself and every person I would ask I

796
00:34:58,849 --> 00:34:54,310
would ask the same question I say hey

797
00:35:01,770 --> 00:34:58,859
Jim any experiences with owls and and um

798
00:35:02,910 --> 00:35:01,780
not 100% obviously but enough that

799
00:35:04,349 --> 00:35:02,920
there's a pattern people would say you

800
00:35:05,700 --> 00:35:04,359
know that's funny no one really has ever

801
00:35:07,020 --> 00:35:05,710
really asked me and I here's a weird

802
00:35:08,670 --> 00:35:07,030
story and they would tell me these

803
00:35:10,559 --> 00:35:08,680
strange stories and I started collecting

804
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:10,569
these stories and documenting them and

805
00:35:14,130 --> 00:35:11,890
archiving them and that eventually

806
00:35:15,930 --> 00:35:14,140
became the big fat book that um the

807
00:35:18,359 --> 00:35:15,940
messengers with all done all stories in

808
00:35:22,260 --> 00:35:18,369
it which fantastic book by the way I

809
00:35:25,530 --> 00:35:22,270
should mention okay for for listeners

810
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:25,540
out there who may not have spent any

811
00:35:33,329 --> 00:35:30,010
time you know outdoors how often does

812
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:33,339
somebody actually see how oh well I mean

813
00:35:36,780 --> 00:35:34,810
sure people see owls all the time in

814
00:35:39,930 --> 00:35:36,790
their here very common birds I mean

815
00:35:42,540 --> 00:35:39,940
they're yeah but okay how often do you

816
00:35:46,140 --> 00:35:42,550
see them flying overhead you know three

817
00:35:49,109 --> 00:35:46,150
at a time like you said you know yeah

818
00:35:50,460 --> 00:35:49,119
well to see him three at a time four

819
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:50,470
days in a row and I did actually talk to

820
00:35:54,329 --> 00:35:53,050
an alibi ologist one time and I in and I

821
00:35:57,480 --> 00:35:54,339
explained the story to him and he

822
00:35:59,400 --> 00:35:57,490
actually kind of did the thing like I

823
00:36:00,930 --> 00:35:59,410
was the crazy uncle at the family you

824
00:36:02,250 --> 00:36:00,940
know at the family uh you know

825
00:36:03,990 --> 00:36:02,260
Thanksgiving dinner you know like he

826
00:36:06,630 --> 00:36:04,000
kinda you could see him kind of backing

827
00:36:08,309 --> 00:36:06,640
away like like you know who is this guy

828
00:36:11,849 --> 00:36:08,319
why is he telling me this mumbo jumbo

829
00:36:14,010 --> 00:36:11,859
when like this is simply not possible um

830
00:36:15,540 --> 00:36:14,020
and that's when I kind of you know

831
00:36:16,710 --> 00:36:15,550
people will say like oh my god I was

832
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:16,720
like driving down the road and I saw an

833
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:19,210
owl in a tree branch and like well yeah

834
00:36:23,550 --> 00:36:21,130
that happens don't you know don't don't

835
00:36:25,370 --> 00:36:23,560
start a new religion over that one but I

836
00:36:28,109 --> 00:36:25,380
do say that whether that what what I

837
00:36:30,059 --> 00:36:28,119
what I will say is that you know what do

838
00:36:31,770 --> 00:36:30,069
they happen at highly charged moments

839
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:31,780
mmm you know what was going on right

840
00:36:36,240 --> 00:36:33,010
before your sighting what was going on

841
00:36:37,770 --> 00:36:36,250
right after it comes right after it the

842
00:36:38,730 --> 00:36:37,780
people will say oh and then a UFO flew

843
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:38,740
over the flow

844
00:36:44,460 --> 00:36:41,410
and that uh I'm not uncommon that is

845
00:36:46,579 --> 00:36:44,470
very common well I was you know the

846
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:46,589
reason I ask that is because you know I

847
00:36:53,579 --> 00:36:50,170
lived in a rural areas probably most of

848
00:36:56,070 --> 00:36:53,589
my life and probably can count on one

849
00:36:58,589 --> 00:36:56,080
hand how many times I have you know

850
00:37:01,380 --> 00:36:58,599
physically seen and how now it'll

851
00:37:05,099 --> 00:37:01,390
naturally herd them plenty of times but

852
00:37:08,900 --> 00:37:05,109
to see more than one at a time or you

853
00:37:12,720 --> 00:37:08,910
know like like you said you know under

854
00:37:15,540 --> 00:37:12,730
you know different situations that is

855
00:37:17,220 --> 00:37:15,550
extremely rare correct yeah it is

856
00:37:18,750 --> 00:37:17,230
extremely rare they do they do bunch up

857
00:37:21,270 --> 00:37:18,760
every once in a while and and and it's

858
00:37:23,390 --> 00:37:21,280
you know it's not impossible but yes it

859
00:37:27,060 --> 00:37:23,400
is very rare in the know the issue that

860
00:37:29,490 --> 00:37:27,070
now that so for me that the this whole

861
00:37:31,230 --> 00:37:29,500
story revolves around I mean I could

862
00:37:34,620 --> 00:37:31,240
dismiss it outright if it hadn't been

863
00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:34,630
for Kristen saying they appeared right

864
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:36,730
when she mentioned her deepest beliefs

865
00:37:41,579 --> 00:37:39,130
about God and I will also have to

866
00:37:43,740 --> 00:37:41,589
mention that I am like no fool in that

867
00:37:47,010 --> 00:37:43,750
that voice in my head that said this has

868
00:37:48,450 --> 00:37:47,020
something to do with the UFOs like I

869
00:37:49,950 --> 00:37:48,460
pulled on that thread right and if there

870
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:49,960
was nothing to do with the UFOs I would

871
00:37:52,020 --> 00:37:51,010
have just pulled on the thread there

872
00:37:53,070 --> 00:37:52,030
would have been nothing at the other end

873
00:37:54,839 --> 00:37:53,080
of it right I just would have gone home

874
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:54,849
well there's no nothing showing up here

875
00:37:59,490 --> 00:37:56,890
I don't have any that's not what

876
00:38:01,050 --> 00:37:59,500
happened I started pulling on that

877
00:38:05,370 --> 00:38:01,060
thread I started asking people about all

878
00:38:07,260 --> 00:38:05,380
experiences and I am like flooded like I

879
00:38:10,500 --> 00:38:07,270
feel like I like the dam burst and I'm

880
00:38:13,020 --> 00:38:10,510
just like I got more weird owl and UFO

881
00:38:15,900 --> 00:38:13,030
stories then I know what to do with and

882
00:38:17,579 --> 00:38:15,910
now so there's that one aspect of the

883
00:38:22,020 --> 00:38:17,589
the issue right you talk to someone like

884
00:38:24,450 --> 00:38:22,030
Budd Hopkins or Dave Jacobs or any UFO

885
00:38:26,670 --> 00:38:24,460
researcher abduction researcher Yvonne

886
00:38:28,770 --> 00:38:26,680
Smith they would all yes then do you

887
00:38:30,180 --> 00:38:28,780
have any all stories and your archives

888
00:38:31,589 --> 00:38:30,190
and they'll say oh absolutely we get

889
00:38:33,300 --> 00:38:31,599
them all the time and what they describe

890
00:38:35,250 --> 00:38:33,310
is people seeing a four-foot tall tall

891
00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:35,260
owl on the side of the road and they

892
00:38:38,070 --> 00:38:36,730
drive past this owl it seems very

893
00:38:41,579 --> 00:38:38,080
unusual they get home and they're two

894
00:38:43,050 --> 00:38:41,589
hours late there's no such thing as a

895
00:38:45,329 --> 00:38:43,060
four-foot tall owl and that's what

896
00:38:46,740 --> 00:38:45,339
people are reporting under hypnosis well

897
00:38:50,670 --> 00:38:46,750
I think in point in Point Pleasant

898
00:38:52,530 --> 00:38:50,680
through was the Mothman yes so then you

899
00:38:54,510 --> 00:38:52,540
start pulling on that thread

900
00:38:56,010 --> 00:38:54,520
and then there's you know no that was

901
00:38:58,440 --> 00:38:56,020
actually what they tried to dismiss the

902
00:38:59,820 --> 00:38:58,450
the Mothman sightings initially the

903
00:39:02,130 --> 00:38:59,830
debunkers said no they people were just

904
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:02,140
seeing a great big owl um and that's

905
00:39:05,370 --> 00:39:03,610
interesting because I mean I'll show up

906
00:39:07,530 --> 00:39:05,380
at night they're spooky they're there

907
00:39:10,140 --> 00:39:07,540
it's kind of the part of any kind of

908
00:39:11,970 --> 00:39:10,150
scary ghost movie and you hear an owl

909
00:39:13,890 --> 00:39:11,980
hooting or there'll be an owl off in the

910
00:39:17,730 --> 00:39:13,900
distance or something so yeah I will

911
00:39:19,500 --> 00:39:17,740
have that lure associated with them you

912
00:39:20,580 --> 00:39:19,510
know not even in mythology which they

913
00:39:22,110 --> 00:39:20,590
certainly have that lower but just in

914
00:39:25,290 --> 00:39:22,120
our pop culture you know little kids at

915
00:39:27,090 --> 00:39:25,300
Halloween you know put a thumbtack you

916
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:27,100
know a little cardboard owls up onto the

917
00:39:32,250 --> 00:39:28,810
bulletin board at their you know

918
00:39:34,530 --> 00:39:32,260
kindergarten class know if anybody's

919
00:39:35,550 --> 00:39:34,540
ever heard a screech owl in the middle

920
00:39:37,820 --> 00:39:35,560
of the night and I've never heard a

921
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:37,830
screech owl before that'll certainly

922
00:39:43,290 --> 00:39:41,170
raise the hair on the back and your neck

923
00:39:48,240 --> 00:39:43,300
and as well a barred owl barred all

924
00:39:50,850 --> 00:39:48,250
sound like you've written about the the

925
00:39:54,060 --> 00:39:50,860
elves and the synchronicities and all

926
00:39:58,200 --> 00:39:54,070
that but what is your thinking on it I

927
00:40:00,150 --> 00:39:58,210
mean what do these are these owls the

928
00:40:02,100 --> 00:40:00,160
occupants of UFOs taking on different I

929
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:02,110
mean like what what what is going on

930
00:40:07,470 --> 00:40:04,450
here why why the owls and why do people

931
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:07,480
see Al's as opposed to leopards and

932
00:40:13,950 --> 00:40:10,530
tigers or maybe they see those two

933
00:40:16,410 --> 00:40:13,960
certainly yeah there's so this is you've

934
00:40:19,350 --> 00:40:16,420
asked the question that took me 400

935
00:40:21,230 --> 00:40:19,360
pages to try to untangle and I and at

936
00:40:28,140 --> 00:40:21,240
the end I basically say I don't know but

937
00:40:30,810 --> 00:40:28,150
I'll do the best I can so the owl I am

938
00:40:34,290 --> 00:40:30,820
as like a as I so this is you know you

939
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:34,300
up for me like I went into this kind of

940
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:36,130
in am nuts and bolts headset yeah head

941
00:40:39,540 --> 00:40:37,450
frame right so I was kind of like

942
00:40:41,010 --> 00:40:39,550
stepped in like I was like you know

943
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:41,020
there's metal spaceships out there and

944
00:40:46,050 --> 00:40:44,050
stuff that all crumbled over the years

945
00:40:47,850 --> 00:40:46,060
of doing the research and now I want to

946
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:47,860
basically did is I have to take my you

947
00:40:51,990 --> 00:40:49,570
notes you have to take my UFO research

948
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:52,000
researcher hat off and I have to put my

949
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:53,650
shaman hat off like I kinda have to

950
00:40:56,850 --> 00:40:55,450
pretend like I'm the guy at the lives in

951
00:40:57,840 --> 00:40:56,860
the tepee at the edge of the village and

952
00:41:00,630 --> 00:40:57,850
if someone has a mystical experience

953
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:00,640
they come to the shaman and and and they

954
00:41:06,420 --> 00:41:02,890
seek help so

955
00:41:10,650 --> 00:41:06,430
is it seems to be more of a shamanistic

956
00:41:13,950 --> 00:41:10,660
kind of totem animal making an

957
00:41:15,510 --> 00:41:13,960
appearance for some reason right people

958
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:15,520
are describing real owls they say like

959
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:17,650
they you know like okay ice UFO flew

960
00:41:22,740 --> 00:41:19,210
overhead right beforehand I saw an owl

961
00:41:24,780 --> 00:41:22,750
on a branch that's right have they left

962
00:41:27,240 --> 00:41:24,790
behind physical evidence like feathers

963
00:41:28,530 --> 00:41:27,250
and stuff um you know actually that's

964
00:41:30,090 --> 00:41:28,540
really too I mean there's a few a few

965
00:41:32,670 --> 00:41:30,100
cases I have where people have found

966
00:41:34,470 --> 00:41:32,680
feathers yes so yes so they certainly

967
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:34,480
could be an apparition but people are

968
00:41:37,710 --> 00:41:35,770
describing something very

969
00:41:40,590 --> 00:41:37,720
straightforward and very plain no now do

970
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:40,600
they do they all look identical I mean

971
00:41:46,110 --> 00:41:43,570
are they these house like duple gangers

972
00:41:49,500 --> 00:41:46,120
or are could they be I don't know what

973
00:41:51,780 --> 00:41:49,510
color a brown and gray and why you know

974
00:41:53,070 --> 00:41:51,790
I'm you know I've been very tribe and

975
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:53,080
tried to pull on those threads do you

976
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:54,370
know people describe the owls that are

977
00:41:57,810 --> 00:41:56,050
in their area there's big owls and small

978
00:42:00,360 --> 00:41:57,820
owls some people see very tiny there's a

979
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:00,370
lot of very tiny owls that are all I can

980
00:42:05,250 --> 00:42:03,490
say all I can say is what a hoot yes yes

981
00:42:11,610 --> 00:42:05,260
I've heard you I was somewhat happy yes

982
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:11,620
yes and I hate doing this I have a lot

983
00:42:15,720 --> 00:42:13,930
of owl mugs now people say oh I found

984
00:42:17,850 --> 00:42:15,730
this Alama I bought it for you so I'm

985
00:42:18,900 --> 00:42:17,860
like I'm like on my shelf I have a lot

986
00:42:24,060 --> 00:42:18,910
of home Luck's and a lot of old

987
00:42:26,970 --> 00:42:24,070
knickknacks no tchotchkes so the answer

988
00:42:32,100 --> 00:42:26,980
is you know there's something at play

989
00:42:34,500 --> 00:42:32,110
here where an archetypal animal right

990
00:42:36,330 --> 00:42:34,510
the owl is just seeped with mythology

991
00:42:40,070 --> 00:42:36,340
and the mythology of the owl all

992
00:42:44,610 --> 00:42:40,080
throughout the ages is that they can

993
00:42:46,170 --> 00:42:44,620
they can travel to the other realms

994
00:42:47,550 --> 00:42:46,180
right so owls fly at night you know

995
00:42:50,340 --> 00:42:47,560
ancient man would have recognized that

996
00:42:52,710 --> 00:42:50,350
that soon becomes a metaphor for

997
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:52,720
traveling into the darkness into other

998
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:54,610
realms into the land of the dead into

999
00:43:00,150 --> 00:42:56,410
the land of the gods into those other

1000
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:00,160
realms that we can't reach so you follow

1001
00:43:04,950 --> 00:43:02,170
that logic the Owls come back with a

1002
00:43:08,340 --> 00:43:04,960
message now this is this is straight out

1003
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:08,350
of Harry Potter Harry Potter has an owl

1004
00:43:12,690 --> 00:43:10,690
that delivers the mail it's perfect it's

1005
00:43:14,970 --> 00:43:12,700
a it's a here's we ever we have ancient

1006
00:43:16,500 --> 00:43:14,980
mythologies and we have a modern

1007
00:43:18,810 --> 00:43:16,510
mythology in the form of Hatter

1008
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:18,820
Harry Potter where an owl delivers the

1009
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:20,650
mail it's a messenger it's perfect

1010
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:24,490
that's that's what I say when I said I

1011
00:43:28,170 --> 00:43:26,170
heard a voice in my head I said I got a

1012
00:43:32,220 --> 00:43:28,180
message that said these owls have

1013
00:43:38,100 --> 00:43:32,230
something to do with UFOs so so there's

1014
00:43:41,940 --> 00:43:38,110
a there's an ancient mythology in place

1015
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:41,950
and I argue that those those what what

1016
00:43:47,970 --> 00:43:45,130
created that ancient mythology is were

1017
00:43:50,850 --> 00:43:47,980
real experiences that that sort of

1018
00:43:53,610 --> 00:43:50,860
percolate it into the collective and and

1019
00:43:59,490 --> 00:43:53,620
then these mythologies welled up out of

1020
00:44:01,620 --> 00:43:59,500
those real experiences so the owl it's

1021
00:44:03,030 --> 00:44:01,630
not just UFOs that's one of a

1022
00:44:04,530 --> 00:44:03,040
highly-charged Mountain things that they

1023
00:44:06,180 --> 00:44:04,540
and that's the core of that my research

1024
00:44:09,710 --> 00:44:06,190
has been the UFO stuff but I'll show up

1025
00:44:12,690 --> 00:44:09,720
around death I'll show up around um

1026
00:44:15,260 --> 00:44:12,700
meditation I'll show up around people

1027
00:44:18,620 --> 00:44:15,270
taking psychedelic drugs like mushrooms

1028
00:44:20,970 --> 00:44:18,630
and so these are all kind of

1029
00:44:22,950 --> 00:44:20,980
transformative experiences shamanic

1030
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:22,960
initiation I will show up around oh

1031
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:25,450
that's very very common you talk to

1032
00:44:28,470 --> 00:44:26,890
people who go through a you know big

1033
00:44:29,490 --> 00:44:28,480
want to become a shaman and go through

1034
00:44:32,330 --> 00:44:29,500
the initiation process

1035
00:44:36,060 --> 00:44:32,340
owls seem to show up in their lives so

1036
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:36,070
the you know you follow that logic you

1037
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:38,530
know are all is is UFO contact a

1038
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:40,210
shamanic initiation is a form of

1039
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:42,970
meditation you know so I'm struggling

1040
00:44:46,950 --> 00:44:44,890
and wrestling with all these questions

1041
00:44:49,020 --> 00:44:46,960
and I wish I could come up with a clean

1042
00:44:52,770 --> 00:44:49,030
tidy answer and the best I can do is

1043
00:44:54,660 --> 00:44:52,780
that there there is some connection

1044
00:44:57,990 --> 00:44:54,670
between owls and these highly charged

1045
00:45:00,150 --> 00:44:58,000
experiences but with this kind of

1046
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:00,160
phenomena there is no clean and tidy

1047
00:45:06,270 --> 00:45:03,490
answers i I think you know we've as a

1048
00:45:10,020 --> 00:45:06,280
species we've struggled for eons trying

1049
00:45:12,870 --> 00:45:10,030
to find these these clean and tidy

1050
00:45:14,460 --> 00:45:12,880
answers and they're not there we're not

1051
00:45:15,810 --> 00:45:14,470
we're not answer you know we're not

1052
00:45:17,820 --> 00:45:15,820
asking the right questions and I don't

1053
00:45:20,730 --> 00:45:17,830
think we're capable of asking the right

1054
00:45:24,450 --> 00:45:20,740
questions at least not at this point you

1055
00:45:27,150 --> 00:45:24,460
know in in in our development but but

1056
00:45:28,720 --> 00:45:27,160
once again though I mean I find it

1057
00:45:34,380 --> 00:45:28,730
interesting how

1058
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:34,390
we are seen these these extremely old

1059
00:45:43,390 --> 00:45:38,570
ancient mythologies coming forth again

1060
00:45:46,930 --> 00:45:43,400
in taking on a modern veneer the the

1061
00:45:51,430 --> 00:45:46,940
owl's as a messenger somehow involved

1062
00:45:54,490 --> 00:45:51,440
with the UFO phenomena you know uh 300

1063
00:45:58,810 --> 00:45:54,500
years ago you know people may attribute

1064
00:46:01,480 --> 00:45:58,820
this as as you know you know messages

1065
00:46:04,990 --> 00:46:01,490
from you know the from the angels or

1066
00:46:07,270 --> 00:46:05,000
demons depending on you know what how

1067
00:46:10,180 --> 00:46:07,280
you how you looked at things now we're

1068
00:46:16,420 --> 00:46:10,190
seeing it as you know some kind of

1069
00:46:17,530 --> 00:46:16,430
connection with with UFOs absolutely you

1070
00:46:20,140 --> 00:46:17,540
know when I was working on the book I

1071
00:46:21,430 --> 00:46:20,150
would I would um people say so what are

1072
00:46:23,740 --> 00:46:21,440
you working on and I'd have to size them

1073
00:46:25,810 --> 00:46:23,750
up you know like you know like oh my god

1074
00:46:27,579 --> 00:46:25,820
there are you like open the can of worms

1075
00:46:29,470 --> 00:46:27,589
about UFOs so I would kind of say um you

1076
00:46:34,450 --> 00:46:29,480
know I'm working on a book on mythology

1077
00:46:36,579 --> 00:46:34,460
I'm like oh that's interesting yeah you

1078
00:46:38,050 --> 00:46:36,589
don't have to you don't like say so the

1079
00:46:39,790 --> 00:46:38,060
night then I Sam do tuned a book on owl

1080
00:46:41,859 --> 00:46:39,800
mythology and I can talk forever like

1081
00:46:43,270 --> 00:46:41,869
going on and on and drone on and on for

1082
00:46:46,450 --> 00:46:43,280
a long time about just a mythological

1083
00:46:50,079 --> 00:46:46,460
aspects and and as I said I argue that

1084
00:46:53,260 --> 00:46:50,089
the same you got you got your eyes wide

1085
00:46:57,130 --> 00:46:53,270
open on this yeah yeah big yeah and I

1086
00:46:58,870 --> 00:46:57,140
can peering into the darkness yes so so

1087
00:47:01,660 --> 00:46:58,880
I basically argue that they could be

1088
00:47:02,930 --> 00:47:01,670
seen come here comes the Sandman but

1089
00:47:10,690 --> 00:47:02,940
we'll be back with this

1090
00:47:10,700 --> 00:47:15,480
[Music]

1091
00:47:22,430 --> 00:47:19,770
explore the bazaars are your e-ticket

1092
00:47:25,710 --> 00:47:22,440
ride into the world of the paranormal

1093
00:47:30,020 --> 00:47:25,720
strap yourself in as we traverse the

1094
00:47:33,140 --> 00:47:30,030
universe exploring the unexplained UFO s

1095
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:33,150
ghosts Lost Worlds

1096
00:47:39,390 --> 00:47:35,530
cryptozoology ones as well as other

1097
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:39,400
dimensions it's time to take back the

1098
00:47:47,670 --> 00:47:44,530
night now your electrifying hosts of

1099
00:47:54,210 --> 00:47:47,680
exploring the bizarre Timothy Begley and

1100
00:47:57,330 --> 00:47:54,220
team sports that the show seems to get

1101
00:48:00,150 --> 00:47:57,340
stranger every week I thought it was

1102
00:48:02,730 --> 00:48:00,160
this big getting stranger every week you

1103
00:48:04,140 --> 00:48:02,740
know we have had on such fabulous guests

1104
00:48:07,830 --> 00:48:04,150
over

1105
00:48:10,350 --> 00:48:07,840
I guess we're well now Peter who does

1106
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:10,360
our youtube version of the show that

1107
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:12,970
keeps track of these things but I worth

1108
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:17,290
- what about 115 or 117 programs I just

1109
00:48:22,860 --> 00:48:20,050
yeah yeah we're really we're knocking

1110
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:22,870
everybody else's socks off weather I

1111
00:48:25,650 --> 00:48:24,490
guess you can't say that these days you

1112
00:48:27,240 --> 00:48:25,660
never know when you'll get thrown off

1113
00:48:30,180 --> 00:48:27,250
the air or something I know that's right

1114
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:30,190
that's right we have to we have to keep

1115
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:33,930
on the side of the owner of the station

1116
00:48:38,370 --> 00:48:35,530
I'm sure I'm sure

1117
00:48:41,010 --> 00:48:38,380
I'm sure we do but you know sue I I did

1118
00:48:45,150 --> 00:48:41,020
have a question now you're up there in

1119
00:48:48,210 --> 00:48:45,160
in Canada I had them mentioned a Wilbur

1120
00:48:50,550 --> 00:48:48,220
Smith they had you heard of him before I

1121
00:48:52,770 --> 00:48:50,560
mean have you done any research on him

1122
00:48:57,570 --> 00:48:52,780
or read any of the material that he put

1123
00:49:01,920 --> 00:48:57,580
out oh yes this is for Canada I did this

1124
00:49:04,050 --> 00:49:01,930
was already in the 1950s yeah yeah yeah

1125
00:49:06,300 --> 00:49:04,060
that they the government themselves were

1126
00:49:09,390 --> 00:49:06,310
already looking into UFOs at that point

1127
00:49:11,850 --> 00:49:09,400
and this will Burt Smith's research was

1128
00:49:14,130 --> 00:49:11,860
in part funded in the early the

1129
00:49:16,890 --> 00:49:14,140
beginning by the Canadian government and

1130
00:49:20,100 --> 00:49:16,900
they were looking for UFOs he had like a

1131
00:49:22,110 --> 00:49:20,110
sort of a UFO monitoring station it was

1132
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:22,120
a shack with a big antenna on the top of

1133
00:49:29,370 --> 00:49:25,570
yeah photo of it in our book but now you

1134
00:49:32,870 --> 00:49:29,380
know I had published I think 1975

1135
00:49:35,430 --> 00:49:32,880
a little book I've been doing this since

1136
00:49:38,460 --> 00:49:35,440
1962 I think can you believe that that

1137
00:49:39,780 --> 00:49:38,470
would make me like the 200 years old and

1138
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:39,790
you're something like that but I've been

1139
00:49:44,730 --> 00:49:41,410
doing this ever since I was a kid you

1140
00:49:47,210 --> 00:49:44,740
know and I think it'll come along 1979 I

1141
00:49:49,740 --> 00:49:47,220
put out a book by an amateur astronomer

1142
00:49:52,850 --> 00:49:49,750
astronomer by the name of John Musgrave

1143
00:49:56,730 --> 00:49:52,860
it was something like it critters and

1144
00:50:01,140 --> 00:49:56,740
monsters are saying but it was a history

1145
00:50:03,300 --> 00:50:01,150
of humanoid encounters in Canada and it

1146
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:03,310
turns out now we included that in this

1147
00:50:10,260 --> 00:50:07,210
in this book project magnet the objects

1148
00:50:13,070 --> 00:50:10,270
in the sky are not stars because it was

1149
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:13,080
a very good it was the only thorough

1150
00:50:18,780 --> 00:50:16,930
reporter dossier on Canadian humanoid

1151
00:50:21,450 --> 00:50:18,790
ever reports today I'd only had the

1152
00:50:24,210 --> 00:50:21,460
probably 50 or 60 in there with

1153
00:50:27,510 --> 00:50:24,220
illustrations somebody the witnesses I I

1154
00:50:29,700 --> 00:50:27,520
believe they they were and it turns out

1155
00:50:32,790 --> 00:50:29,710
that he had actually gotten a six

1156
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:32,800
thousand dollar grant to to put this

1157
00:50:37,950 --> 00:50:35,890
report together which which probably

1158
00:50:40,590 --> 00:50:37,960
makes it outside in the continent report

1159
00:50:44,550 --> 00:50:40,600
which of course was the whitewash one of

1160
00:50:48,030 --> 00:50:44,560
the few instances where government a

1161
00:50:53,700 --> 00:50:48,040
government has given out the out any any

1162
00:50:56,190 --> 00:50:53,710
funding for a UFO research but I mean

1163
00:50:58,140 --> 00:50:56,200
how do you feel about a UFO activity in

1164
00:50:59,970 --> 00:50:58,150
Canada I mean do you think it's a it's

1165
00:51:02,040 --> 00:50:59,980
on the increase or is it pretty steady

1166
00:51:04,710 --> 00:51:02,050
or it seems to have a wealth of

1167
00:51:06,870 --> 00:51:04,720
information over the years I mean some

1168
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:06,880
of the reports that have come across our

1169
00:51:11,940 --> 00:51:09,490
desk we used to was subscribed to a

1170
00:51:15,930 --> 00:51:11,950
magazine called saucer space in science

1171
00:51:17,790 --> 00:51:15,940
which was edited by Jean to plant da who

1172
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:17,800
actually I just spoke to on the phone he

1173
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:20,650
just turned I think 92 and of course

1174
00:51:25,380 --> 00:51:24,130
he's out of the publishing business he

1175
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:25,390
hasn't put out an issue of the magazine

1176
00:51:30,630 --> 00:51:29,410
and and many a decades of course but we

1177
00:51:34,500 --> 00:51:30,640
used to get quite a bit of information

1178
00:51:37,650 --> 00:51:34,510
on UFO sightings in Canada they they

1179
00:51:39,510 --> 00:51:37,660
seem to be even more let us use the

1180
00:51:43,290 --> 00:51:39,520
politically their political tear

1181
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:43,300
progressive to describe their activity

1182
00:51:48,510 --> 00:51:45,570
I mean do you find that the case or uh

1183
00:51:51,630 --> 00:51:48,520
well absolutely we have a very rich

1184
00:51:54,690 --> 00:51:51,640
history in in UFO experience here in

1185
00:51:57,540 --> 00:51:54,700
Canada and I would say one of the better

1186
00:52:00,240 --> 00:51:57,550
resources would be from UFO research of

1187
00:52:03,060 --> 00:52:00,250
Manitoba which is Christopher Rakowski

1188
00:52:05,610 --> 00:52:03,070
who is also a contributor to Robby

1189
00:52:07,620 --> 00:52:05,620
Graham's book he has been putting out

1190
00:52:10,500 --> 00:52:07,630
for the last 25 years the annual

1191
00:52:12,780 --> 00:52:10,510
Canadian UFO survey which takes a look

1192
00:52:14,940 --> 00:52:12,790
at all the cases that he can gather from

1193
00:52:19,110 --> 00:52:14,950
various different sources whether it be

1194
00:52:22,740 --> 00:52:19,120
the media the military actual witnesses

1195
00:52:25,470 --> 00:52:22,750
MUFON I myself I contribute cases when

1196
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:25,480
they come along to the survey and they

1197
00:52:31,500 --> 00:52:27,610
just sort of collate them as to what

1198
00:52:33,720 --> 00:52:31,510
types of experiences they are whether

1199
00:52:35,550 --> 00:52:33,730
they seem to have a genuine anomaly or

1200
00:52:37,500 --> 00:52:35,560
whether they're more probable something

1201
00:52:39,810 --> 00:52:37,510
that's been a misidentified and this has

1202
00:52:41,730 --> 00:52:39,820
been going on for over 25 years now so

1203
00:52:45,570 --> 00:52:41,740
it is a very good resource that you can

1204
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:45,580
access online and it's got hundreds and

1205
00:52:53,130 --> 00:52:49,090
hundreds of cases so yeah we we do have

1206
00:52:54,780 --> 00:52:53,140
a very rich history here of UFO what was

1207
00:52:57,390 --> 00:52:54,790
one of the things one of the things that

1208
00:53:00,690 --> 00:52:57,400
I noticed that there seem to be quite a

1209
00:53:03,620 --> 00:53:00,700
number of UFO sightings over bodies of

1210
00:53:07,020 --> 00:53:03,630
water now of course we know a shag

1211
00:53:10,950 --> 00:53:07,030
harbour but there been other cases where

1212
00:53:12,210 --> 00:53:10,960
UFOs have submerged themselves and I

1213
00:53:14,340 --> 00:53:12,220
remember there was a fella by the name

1214
00:53:16,650 --> 00:53:14,350
of keel not spelled like John keel but

1215
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:16,660
an elderly gentleman who wrote me I

1216
00:53:21,540 --> 00:53:18,490
don't know eight or nine or ten page

1217
00:53:24,540 --> 00:53:21,550
letter describing what he had seen an

1218
00:53:26,970 --> 00:53:24,550
object a UFO disc-shaped craft resting

1219
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:26,980
on the body of water and humanoid

1220
00:53:30,930 --> 00:53:29,410
figures of some type coming out and you

1221
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:30,940
know I don't know I don't know if they

1222
00:53:35,370 --> 00:53:33,370
waved to him or or not and and and then

1223
00:53:36,990 --> 00:53:35,380
there was a whole series of sightings I

1224
00:53:40,110 --> 00:53:37,000
don't know if they're still going on or

1225
00:53:42,420 --> 00:53:40,120
not over Lake Ontario in fact I had a

1226
00:53:44,940 --> 00:53:42,430
whole series of photographs there was a

1227
00:53:47,850 --> 00:53:44,950
fellow up in Canada by the name of Tom

1228
00:53:50,190 --> 00:53:47,860
gray and he had invited me up and we

1229
00:53:52,590 --> 00:53:50,200
gave a little talk in his basement they

1230
00:53:56,190 --> 00:53:52,600
were full house they were sitting on the

1231
00:53:57,150 --> 00:53:56,200
stairs going up to the kitchen which not

1232
00:53:58,769 --> 00:53:57,160
very many

1233
00:54:00,870 --> 00:53:58,779
but you know I'd be there and they had a

1234
00:54:04,049 --> 00:54:00,880
lot of sightings and photographs taking

1235
00:54:05,999 --> 00:54:04,059
up your photos over Lake Ontario and I

1236
00:54:09,329 --> 00:54:06,009
had a friend of mine Harry levelsand who

1237
00:54:11,999 --> 00:54:09,339
was the UFO editor of Omni magazine when

1238
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:12,009
Bob Guccione owned it and they refused

1239
00:54:18,470 --> 00:54:14,650
the the prints of photographs because

1240
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:18,480
they were - they were - what's the word

1241
00:54:23,309 --> 00:54:20,890
too much evidence that these things were

1242
00:54:26,069 --> 00:54:23,319
real and I guess the Guccione was trying

1243
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:26,079
to keep in tight with some of these

1244
00:54:30,720 --> 00:54:27,970
science fiction writers like arthur c

1245
00:54:33,299 --> 00:54:30,730
clarke and isaac asimov who are the

1246
00:54:35,730 --> 00:54:33,309
biggest skeptics in the world when it

1247
00:54:37,980 --> 00:54:35,740
comes to or work that they're not in

1248
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:37,990
this world anymore but they were the the

1249
00:54:43,499 --> 00:54:40,410
biggest skeptics going and they actually

1250
00:54:45,029 --> 00:54:43,509
you know it got to the point where i

1251
00:54:48,690 --> 00:54:45,039
found the kind of nauseating because

1252
00:54:50,970 --> 00:54:48,700
they would try to turn the heads of of

1253
00:54:53,279 --> 00:54:50,980
anybody in the science fiction community

1254
00:54:55,259 --> 00:54:53,289
I mean even fandom by saying you know

1255
00:54:56,789 --> 00:54:55,269
UFO believers were all crackpots that we

1256
00:55:00,779 --> 00:54:56,799
were making it up and we're out to make

1257
00:55:02,999 --> 00:55:00,789
money and so forth and and you know so

1258
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:03,009
on which is hardly the hardly the case

1259
00:55:07,529 --> 00:55:04,930
is that my can they probably tell you

1260
00:55:12,029 --> 00:55:07,539
but or anybody else has been in this

1261
00:55:14,849 --> 00:55:12,039
field for any length of time in fact I

1262
00:55:16,769 --> 00:55:14,859
always remark on you know philip k dick

1263
00:55:19,019 --> 00:55:16,779
who i just wrote a book about the

1264
00:55:20,339 --> 00:55:19,029
synchronicities Myka if I cure in there

1265
00:55:23,759 --> 00:55:20,349
I don't know if I sent you a copy you

1266
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:23,769
did yes because we did the whole thing

1267
00:55:27,779 --> 00:55:25,450
about the cancer I know which we might

1268
00:55:31,140 --> 00:55:27,789
want to bring up if we have time in a

1269
00:55:33,359 --> 00:55:31,150
little while but of course the full Kay

1270
00:55:33,690 --> 00:55:33,369
dick was a well-known a science fiction

1271
00:55:36,240 --> 00:55:33,700
writer

1272
00:55:37,950 --> 00:55:36,250
he's been deceased now for I think 25

1273
00:55:42,630 --> 00:55:37,960
years or so he wasn't quite that

1274
00:55:45,359 --> 00:55:42,640
well-known in 1974-75 when he went over

1275
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:45,369
to France and was at a press conference

1276
00:55:50,279 --> 00:55:47,890
and at the press conference he started

1277
00:55:54,390 --> 00:55:50,289
telling about how he thought we lived in

1278
00:55:56,339 --> 00:55:54,400
a simulated universe and that we were

1279
00:55:58,890 --> 00:55:56,349
part of some matrix which is interesting

1280
00:56:03,240 --> 00:55:58,900
because I just found out he never even

1281
00:56:04,890 --> 00:56:03,250
owned the computer oh that was well yeah

1282
00:56:07,589 --> 00:56:04,900
he died in there like in the early 80s

1283
00:56:09,690 --> 00:56:07,599
yeah but he he was so beatnik like most

1284
00:56:11,069 --> 00:56:09,700
writers in that area he was still

1285
00:56:15,630 --> 00:56:11,079
beating it out on a manual

1286
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:15,640
a typewriter you know and but anyway you

1287
00:56:20,549 --> 00:56:18,130
can see there's a clip of this we've

1288
00:56:22,049 --> 00:56:20,559
used it on our on our YouTube version of

1289
00:56:24,269 --> 00:56:22,059
the show and you could find it on

1290
00:56:27,989 --> 00:56:24,279
YouTube itself where he's you know what

1291
00:56:30,449 --> 00:56:27,999
giving this little talk in front of this

1292
00:56:31,949 --> 00:56:30,459
group they're in France and he's talking

1293
00:56:33,650 --> 00:56:31,959
about the you know some of his

1294
00:56:35,729 --> 00:56:33,660
experiences and his thoughts on

1295
00:56:39,539 --> 00:56:35,739
synchronicity and all and they are

1296
00:56:41,910 --> 00:56:39,549
looking at him in total gaga as if he is

1297
00:56:44,009 --> 00:56:41,920
a creature from another planet and what

1298
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:44,019
is he speaking of because they can only

1299
00:56:51,420 --> 00:56:47,249
think of this in their wild unfertile

1300
00:56:53,130 --> 00:56:51,430
imagination and you know for as no time

1301
00:56:55,019 --> 00:56:53,140
at all you know in fact we've even had

1302
00:56:58,440 --> 00:56:55,029
conferences and we would turn it over

1303
00:57:00,989 --> 00:56:58,450
for an afternoon to the x-file people

1304
00:57:02,519 --> 00:57:00,999
and that they would bring in a very

1305
00:57:06,690 --> 00:57:02,529
small crowd because they didn't want to

1306
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:06,700
be you know involved in a UFO meeting of

1307
00:57:11,069 --> 00:57:09,130
any sort and the people who were

1308
00:57:14,130 --> 00:57:11,079
interested in UFOs and the paranormal

1309
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:14,140
left a room and then when we came back

1310
00:57:17,099 --> 00:57:15,729
in the room well the x-file people

1311
00:57:19,199 --> 00:57:17,109
disappeared who never saw him for the

1312
00:57:22,349 --> 00:57:19,209
rest of the the weekend so you know

1313
00:57:25,109 --> 00:57:22,359
there's just no overlapping in any of

1314
00:57:30,809 --> 00:57:25,119
this and they will not even consider the

1315
00:57:35,130 --> 00:57:30,819
the the topic so now how many how many

1316
00:57:39,390 --> 00:57:35,140
now you remember a su of MUFON no I I

1317
00:57:43,890 --> 00:57:39,400
was very early on and in late 90s I had

1318
00:57:47,039 --> 00:57:43,900
I had met with MUFON and at that time I

1319
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:47,049
really wasn't I didn't feel comfortable

1320
00:57:53,609 --> 00:57:50,890
with them I sort of struck out on my own

1321
00:57:55,829 --> 00:57:53,619
and and I ended up actually kind of

1322
00:57:58,920 --> 00:57:55,839
drifting more toward skepticism and I I

1323
00:58:03,900 --> 00:57:58,930
joined a skeptics organization here in

1324
00:58:06,989 --> 00:58:03,910
Toronto and I started to sort of I guess

1325
00:58:08,999 --> 00:58:06,999
question my own experience of 1990 and I

1326
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:09,009
started wondering well maybe you know

1327
00:58:13,469 --> 00:58:11,650
was it something natural did it really

1328
00:58:15,779 --> 00:58:13,479
you know happen sort of thing the way I

1329
00:58:17,670 --> 00:58:15,789
remembered it to happen and so I was

1330
00:58:19,589 --> 00:58:17,680
with the skeptics for a couple of years

1331
00:58:22,109 --> 00:58:19,599
and which was good because I learned a

1332
00:58:24,930 --> 00:58:22,119
lot from them as far as like mad you can

1333
00:58:27,839 --> 00:58:24,940
have you cleansed you cleansed your soul

1334
00:58:29,970 --> 00:58:27,849
I I actually I felt that more what hat

1335
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:29,980
was happening was I was trying to kind

1336
00:58:34,620 --> 00:58:32,770
of stay more into this reality or it's

1337
00:58:37,290 --> 00:58:34,630
getting firmer grasp on reality as

1338
00:58:39,150 --> 00:58:37,300
opposed to to going farther down that

1339
00:58:40,859 --> 00:58:39,160
rabbit hole there's sort of a safety

1340
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:40,869
kind of in the idea of being and that

1341
00:58:46,950 --> 00:58:43,810
sort of rational mindset and then I had

1342
00:58:49,380 --> 00:58:46,960
another experience in 2001 with a

1343
00:58:51,540 --> 00:58:49,390
girlfriend also involving Lake Ontario

1344
00:58:55,020 --> 00:58:51,550
and this time it was much closer it

1345
00:58:56,730 --> 00:58:55,030
looked like a spaceship and at that

1346
00:58:59,130 --> 00:58:56,740
point that I couldn't be a skeptic

1347
00:59:01,290 --> 00:58:59,140
anymore that that was sort of the second

1348
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:01,300
for me initiation like I was going

1349
00:59:06,839 --> 00:59:04,690
through these sort of situations of

1350
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:06,849
points in my life that sort of radically

1351
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:08,890
changed the direction I was going in and

1352
00:59:13,550 --> 00:59:11,530
in 2001 that happened again and at that

1353
00:59:17,010 --> 00:59:13,560
point I could not deny the reality

1354
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:17,020
whatever it is of this experience a real

1355
00:59:22,470 --> 00:59:19,930
Space Odyssey was happening yeah yes

1356
00:59:25,579 --> 00:59:22,480
tell us a little bit more about that

1357
00:59:29,670 --> 00:59:25,589
experience because you had some unusual

1358
00:59:32,130 --> 00:59:29,680
feelings during that experience yes I

1359
00:59:34,650 --> 00:59:32,140
actually had physical sort of symptoms

1360
00:59:36,599 --> 00:59:34,660
that I myself and my girlfriend at the

1361
00:59:39,839 --> 00:59:36,609
time we had been doing this sort of a

1362
00:59:42,420 --> 00:59:39,849
hike along Ajax Ontario which is sort of

1363
00:59:44,309 --> 00:59:42,430
like this elevation sort of cliffs above

1364
00:59:46,230 --> 00:59:44,319
the lake so you're higher up from the

1365
00:59:48,750 --> 00:59:46,240
lake but it sort of trails that lead

1366
00:59:50,819 --> 00:59:48,760
down towards the nuclear power plant and

1367
00:59:53,069 --> 00:59:50,829
we had been walking and it was just

1368
00:59:58,200 --> 00:59:53,079
starting to get dusk and it was July

1369
00:59:59,910 --> 00:59:58,210
31st 2001 and as we got down this part

1370
01:00:02,370 --> 00:59:59,920
of the trail I was looking out over the

1371
01:00:04,470 --> 01:00:02,380
lake towards Oswego New York and I saw

1372
01:00:06,150 --> 01:00:04,480
these sort of sparkles of light playing

1373
01:00:08,579 --> 01:00:06,160
across the water and at first I thought

1374
01:00:11,790 --> 01:00:08,589
maybe this is a reflection off the boys

1375
01:00:14,250 --> 01:00:11,800
or the or or like they may be sailboats

1376
01:00:15,930 --> 01:00:14,260
or something I didn't know and then it

1377
01:00:17,579 --> 01:00:15,940
just started it kept going and I started

1378
01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:17,589
feeling sort of almost as if I was

1379
01:00:20,790 --> 01:00:19,210
coming down with a migraine because I

1380
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:20,800
had migraines in those days with the

1381
01:00:24,569 --> 01:00:22,450
aura and you know you see those lights

1382
01:00:26,010 --> 01:00:24,579
sort of in the corners of your eyes and

1383
01:00:28,500 --> 01:00:26,020
you're not just feeling the sort of

1384
01:00:30,510 --> 01:00:28,510
electrical activity in your head and I

1385
01:00:32,819 --> 01:00:30,520
started feeling a little nauseated night

1386
01:00:34,349 --> 01:00:32,829
I said to my friend I said you know

1387
01:00:36,210 --> 01:00:34,359
maybe we should start walking up back

1388
01:00:37,859 --> 01:00:36,220
towards the car I'm not feeling well and

1389
01:00:38,700 --> 01:00:37,869
then she said to me I'm not really

1390
01:00:40,140 --> 01:00:38,710
feeling well

1391
01:00:43,260 --> 01:00:40,150
either and she started describing

1392
01:00:45,810 --> 01:00:43,270
similar symptoms so we started walking

1393
01:00:47,820 --> 01:00:45,820
up the path and and it was kind of a

1394
01:00:49,829 --> 01:00:47,830
night there it was kind of threatening

1395
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:49,839
that a storm might break so the weather

1396
01:00:53,670 --> 01:00:51,970
wasn't really crummy but it wasn't

1397
01:00:57,510 --> 01:00:53,680
really nice either so we were heading

1398
01:00:59,700 --> 01:00:57,520
out towards the car and all of a sudden

1399
01:01:03,930 --> 01:00:59,710
it was like I looked up at this point

1400
01:01:07,230 --> 01:01:03,940
and there was this huge spaceship is all

1401
01:01:09,150 --> 01:01:07,240
I can describe it look very solid yes at

1402
01:01:10,710 --> 01:01:09,160
first I thought it was triangular shape

1403
01:01:12,599 --> 01:01:10,720
but it was actually more of a diamond

1404
01:01:14,820 --> 01:01:12,609
shape I could tell this because there

1405
01:01:18,540 --> 01:01:14,830
were these points of red light at each

1406
01:01:21,930 --> 01:01:18,550
point then this these columns of light

1407
01:01:23,820 --> 01:01:21,940
descended down I was we were on sort of

1408
01:01:25,829 --> 01:01:23,830
standing on the precipice on this cliff

1409
01:01:28,230 --> 01:01:25,839
looking down towards the lake I could

1410
01:01:29,790 --> 01:01:28,240
see this the columns of light coming

1411
01:01:33,030 --> 01:01:29,800
down I could see them playing off the

1412
01:01:34,740 --> 01:01:33,040
water again I was in stock my girlfriend

1413
01:01:37,140 --> 01:01:34,750
was in shock we were sort of trying to

1414
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:37,150
discount and think like is this really

1415
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:40,210
happening is this true it was so bizarre

1416
01:01:46,589 --> 01:01:44,170
and then I just I started feeling really

1417
01:01:49,500 --> 01:01:46,599
sort of scared at this point it was very

1418
01:01:52,890 --> 01:01:49,510
close and it was almost as if this thing

1419
01:01:54,660 --> 01:01:52,900
it was like bobbing along like a kite I

1420
01:01:56,640 --> 01:01:54,670
kind of described it almost like a kite

1421
01:01:59,010 --> 01:01:56,650
in in the in an air current that's what

1422
01:02:01,140 --> 01:01:59,020
it sort of appeared to be doing and then

1423
01:02:05,670 --> 01:02:01,150
it just sort of shifted just slightly

1424
01:02:08,670 --> 01:02:05,680
and vanished and both of us were just

1425
01:02:11,490 --> 01:02:08,680
sort of we were so gobsmacked at this

1426
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:11,500
and I started feeling really scared and

1427
01:02:15,270 --> 01:02:13,810
I still remember the feeling at that

1428
01:02:17,339 --> 01:02:15,280
time that it was still there I just

1429
01:02:19,980 --> 01:02:17,349
couldn't see it and I think that's what

1430
01:02:23,339 --> 01:02:19,990
really scared me is though it was there

1431
01:02:26,490 --> 01:02:23,349
and we couldn't see it so we just we ran

1432
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:26,500
we ran for this parking lot and got in

1433
01:02:31,020 --> 01:02:28,810
the car and then as soon as I got home

1434
01:02:33,450 --> 01:02:31,030
about 20 minutes or so later I just

1435
01:02:36,930 --> 01:02:33,460
typed this all out and I sent it off to

1436
01:02:40,109 --> 01:02:36,940
a friend who was living in the area and

1437
01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:40,119
was interested in UFOs and I cuz I you

1438
01:02:44,370 --> 01:02:41,410
just I couldn't talk to any of my

1439
01:02:46,260 --> 01:02:44,380
skeptical friends at that point but it

1440
01:02:49,109 --> 01:02:46,270
that really changed sort of the

1441
01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:49,119
direction of my life because I couldn't

1442
01:02:52,230 --> 01:02:50,530
be a skeptic I couldn't be one of the

1443
01:02:55,020 --> 01:02:52,240
skeptics anymore

1444
01:02:56,520 --> 01:02:55,030
because I just at that point I knew that

1445
01:02:58,740 --> 01:02:56,530
these things are they're real they're

1446
01:03:04,320 --> 01:02:58,750
true whatever they are

1447
01:03:05,790 --> 01:03:04,330
oh no no no might go ahead so I'm gonna

1448
01:03:07,260 --> 01:03:05,800
say it this is like this is what I

1449
01:03:09,359 --> 01:03:07,270
confront all the time people who say

1450
01:03:11,070 --> 01:03:09,369
well I've had this experience and then I

1451
01:03:12,900 --> 01:03:11,080
had this other experience and then I had

1452
01:03:15,300 --> 01:03:12,910
this third experience and then they just

1453
01:03:17,130 --> 01:03:15,310
goes on and on and on and you I mean

1454
01:03:19,829 --> 01:03:17,140
I've I don't know anything about your

1455
01:03:23,609 --> 01:03:19,839
experiences and I'm listening here and

1456
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:23,619
and now I have to ask a question and and

1457
01:03:28,650 --> 01:03:25,450
this is I apologize for doing this right

1458
01:03:29,940 --> 01:03:28,660
here on the table but God since what's

1459
01:03:36,530 --> 01:03:29,950
your sense do you feel you're an

1460
01:03:41,220 --> 01:03:36,540
abductee I don't know I don't I I don't

1461
01:03:45,290 --> 01:03:41,230
have memories of being in a spaceship or

1462
01:03:48,660 --> 01:03:45,300
but I do feel that I've had some sort of

1463
01:03:50,430 --> 01:03:48,670
interaction or communication because

1464
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:50,440
I've had other strange experiences that

1465
01:03:54,870 --> 01:03:52,810
may or may not be ufo-related I've had

1466
01:03:57,780 --> 01:03:54,880
experiences with the little mini mini

1467
01:04:00,570 --> 01:03:57,790
light falls in experiments that I've

1468
01:04:03,420 --> 01:04:00,580
done that lead me to believe that I've

1469
01:04:05,790 --> 01:04:03,430
had direct sort of communications or

1470
01:04:08,640 --> 01:04:05,800
interactions with whatever the phenomena

1471
01:04:12,359 --> 01:04:08,650
is but I don't necessarily feel that

1472
01:04:14,790 --> 01:04:12,369
I've had the classic sort of abductee

1473
01:04:17,550 --> 01:04:14,800
experience no at least not that I can

1474
01:04:19,980 --> 01:04:17,560
recall fair okay fair enough this is I

1475
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:19,990
with us you're saying what I have heard

1476
01:04:26,490 --> 01:04:24,130
many times what I'm sensing is that

1477
01:04:30,390 --> 01:04:26,500
there's a right we have this sort of pop

1478
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:30,400
culture image of like UFO contact and

1479
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:31,810
abduction right you sort of watch

1480
01:04:36,089 --> 01:04:34,330
late-night TV documentaries and people

1481
01:04:38,130 --> 01:04:36,099
get you know taken out of their beds

1482
01:04:40,440 --> 01:04:38,140
with blue lights and they get you know

1483
01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:40,450
stopped on the lonely highways and then

1484
01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:41,770
they get you know taken up in to craft

1485
01:04:48,329 --> 01:04:44,410
so we have that as part of our as part

1486
01:04:52,710 --> 01:04:48,339
of our psyche you know and and what I'm

1487
01:04:54,990 --> 01:04:52,720
finding is those stories exist they're

1488
01:04:58,170 --> 01:04:55,000
out there but they in my opinion are far

1489
01:05:00,060 --> 01:04:58,180
outnumbered almost word-for-word what

1490
01:05:01,890 --> 01:05:00,070
with what you just said you know I asked

1491
01:05:03,030 --> 01:05:01,900
people the same question all the time do

1492
01:05:06,060 --> 01:05:03,040
you think you're an abductee and they'll

1493
01:05:08,420 --> 01:05:06,070
say I don't know but

1494
01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:08,430
and then they'll they'll help sort of

1495
01:05:13,020 --> 01:05:11,290
say very much what you said so I'm at

1496
01:05:15,540 --> 01:05:13,030
the point now where like I don't care

1497
01:05:17,040 --> 01:05:15,550
like what UFO abduction means that sort

1498
01:05:18,810 --> 01:05:17,050
of a drag that we're stuck with that

1499
01:05:23,490 --> 01:05:18,820
term because I you know there's no other

1500
01:05:26,250 --> 01:05:23,500
term to but this this sort of I don't

1501
01:05:31,140 --> 01:05:26,260
know what like psychic mystical

1502
01:05:36,630 --> 01:05:31,150
involvement with something other yes yes

1503
01:05:39,570 --> 01:05:36,640
and that is very common yes I would say

1504
01:05:41,790 --> 01:05:39,580
so it's it's if we strip away the

1505
01:05:43,890 --> 01:05:41,800
language that surrounds this because I

1506
01:05:46,020 --> 01:05:43,900
mean maybe for some people they describe

1507
01:05:48,510 --> 01:05:46,030
a more religious experience and there

1508
01:05:52,070 --> 01:05:48,520
have been sort of connections made to

1509
01:05:55,080 --> 01:05:52,080
visions of the Virgin Mary with UFO type

1510
01:05:57,180 --> 01:05:55,090
experiences and other sort of mystical

1511
01:05:59,280 --> 01:05:57,190
sort of things and and I think that when

1512
01:06:01,470 --> 01:05:59,290
you strip away that language and look at

1513
01:06:03,780 --> 01:06:01,480
the base experience there seems to be

1514
01:06:07,050 --> 01:06:03,790
some sort of common points with all of

1515
01:06:08,370 --> 01:06:07,060
them and they are mystical and and then

1516
01:06:09,960 --> 01:06:08,380
they could yeah this is what you have

1517
01:06:12,990 --> 01:06:09,970
Crapo you familiar with jeff kraebel as

1518
01:06:14,550 --> 01:06:13,000
a researcher at all yes yes he's a few

1519
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:14,560
frames and stuff beautifully in this

1520
01:06:21,090 --> 01:06:17,410
form now you know so you know on one

1521
01:06:22,380 --> 01:06:21,100
sense I think to myself well you know I

1522
01:06:24,750 --> 01:06:22,390
mean I'm at the point now where I call

1523
01:06:26,580 --> 01:06:24,760
myself an abductee even though I have no

1524
01:06:28,170 --> 01:06:26,590
memories of being on board a craft I

1525
01:06:29,970 --> 01:06:28,180
certainly have dreams that seem like

1526
01:06:33,830 --> 01:06:29,980
they're on board a craft but no direct

1527
01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:33,840
memories and I say that just because

1528
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:36,130
like I you know like if you have a

1529
01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:37,690
puzzle and it's on the kitchen table

1530
01:06:40,380 --> 01:06:38,770
right you've got all the puzzle pieces

1531
01:06:41,910 --> 01:06:40,390
but you're missing a few puzzle pieces

1532
01:06:44,340 --> 01:06:41,920
you can still you still know it's a

1533
01:06:46,260 --> 01:06:44,350
sailboat without having those few extra

1534
01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:46,270
puzzle pieces so I'm missing some puzzle

1535
01:06:51,210 --> 01:06:48,690
pieces but it feels like I still know

1536
01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:51,220
I'm pretty damn clear what it implies

1537
01:06:56,310 --> 01:06:54,850
but in my sense is maybe that all these

1538
01:06:58,260 --> 01:06:56,320
people who are on kind of on the fence

1539
01:07:01,380 --> 01:06:58,270
and kind of say what you said you know

1540
01:07:03,330 --> 01:07:01,390
like maybe they've had UFO contact

1541
01:07:06,030 --> 01:07:03,340
experiences and it's just been erased or

1542
01:07:09,120 --> 01:07:06,040
maybe there there's that there's a

1543
01:07:12,510 --> 01:07:09,130
there's a separate ladder that's like

1544
01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:12,520
you know rising out of the the normal

1545
01:07:17,190 --> 01:07:14,890
and up into the ether you know one has

1546
01:07:18,840 --> 01:07:17,200
you know UFO contact at the top of the

1547
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:18,850
ladder and the other one has

1548
01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:20,530
something more ephemeral and more

1549
01:07:25,230 --> 01:07:24,010
elusive and I can't know and but I'm

1550
01:07:27,210 --> 01:07:25,240
just saying that there's this stuff

1551
01:07:29,940 --> 01:07:27,220
overlaps and that this is where the owl

1552
01:07:33,380 --> 01:07:29,950
now I'm financed the Owls seem to be

1553
01:07:36,600 --> 01:07:33,390
showing up more where people are on this

1554
01:07:38,280 --> 01:07:36,610
this may be category you know where the

1555
01:07:40,050 --> 01:07:38,290
that's the people who are seeing the

1556
01:07:44,790 --> 01:07:40,060
owls not the people who are straight-up

1557
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:44,800
UFO abductees yeah and they and the owl

1558
01:07:51,030 --> 01:07:48,850
to being a psychopomp being of having

1559
01:07:53,310 --> 01:07:51,040
that mythology is very interesting that

1560
01:07:55,500 --> 01:07:53,320
they are messengers messengers of the

1561
01:07:57,330 --> 01:07:55,510
gods between this world and the other

1562
01:08:01,290 --> 01:07:57,340
realm I find that very interesting as

1563
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:01,300
well there's a connection there is

1564
01:08:04,470 --> 01:08:02,890
certainly a connection between this

1565
01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:04,480
world and the next

1566
01:08:09,120 --> 01:08:07,570
is my kid to tell you because he's

1567
01:08:11,490 --> 01:08:09,130
written about this and and we did a

1568
01:08:15,960 --> 01:08:11,500
chapter in our book on what I call the

1569
01:08:17,970 --> 01:08:15,970
June 24th enigma we're over a dozen UFO

1570
01:08:20,340 --> 01:08:17,980
researchers have passed away on what

1571
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:20,350
would be the anniversary of the first

1572
01:08:24,900 --> 01:08:22,570
sighting by Kenneth Arnold and that

1573
01:08:31,070 --> 01:08:24,910
would include Frank Edwards Jackie

1574
01:08:33,890 --> 01:08:31,080
Gleason Frank Scully and just by

1575
01:08:36,270 --> 01:08:33,900
coincidence and I put that in quotes

1576
01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:36,280
Kenneth Arnold didn't believe that the

1577
01:08:40,410 --> 01:08:38,530
UFOs that he saw were from outer space

1578
01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:40,420
he thought that they were actually

1579
01:08:46,110 --> 01:08:43,570
coming here to carry the souls of the

1580
01:08:48,810 --> 01:08:46,120
departed over to the next plane

1581
01:08:51,180 --> 01:08:48,820
so I mean doesn't it seem very year

1582
01:08:55,290 --> 01:08:51,190
strange that that would be part of the

1583
01:08:58,440 --> 01:08:55,300
June 24th enigma and as Mike can tell

1584
01:09:00,390 --> 01:08:58,450
you that it can't Arnold had numerous

1585
01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:00,400
sightings I mean the the I'm not even

1586
01:09:05,280 --> 01:09:03,010
sure what was the the one on June 21st

1587
01:09:08,580 --> 01:09:05,290
was 24th was that his first sighting or

1588
01:09:10,410 --> 01:09:08,590
because I do know that he had quite a

1589
01:09:11,520 --> 01:09:10,420
number of sightings after he yeah yeah

1590
01:09:14,370 --> 01:09:11,530
that wait a number he had I think

1591
01:09:15,840 --> 01:09:14,380
growing up he had sightings of orbs and

1592
01:09:17,490 --> 01:09:15,850
I think that was the initial sighting of

1593
01:09:19,500 --> 01:09:17,500
UFOs now this is something that I had to

1594
01:09:21,180 --> 01:09:19,510
dig pretty deep and there's a lot of he

1595
01:09:24,540 --> 01:09:21,190
was a busy guy I mean he did interviews

1596
01:09:26,370 --> 01:09:24,550
and stuff but he he said he never said

1597
01:09:28,620 --> 01:09:26,380
it at the time but he said it later I

1598
01:09:31,800 --> 01:09:28,630
think in the early 80s that he had

1599
01:09:32,609 --> 01:09:31,810
telepathic communication with those UFOs

1600
01:09:34,769 --> 01:09:32,619
craft

1601
01:09:38,039 --> 01:09:34,779
well we've had his we've had his

1602
01:09:40,709 --> 01:09:38,049
granddaughter Chanel on a couple of

1603
01:09:43,620 --> 01:09:40,719
times now in fact we usually invite her

1604
01:09:46,050 --> 01:09:43,630
on around the anniversary of the of the

1605
01:09:47,609 --> 01:09:46,060
year of the sighting and now he has

1606
01:09:50,669 --> 01:09:47,619
something I'm gonna interject this is

1607
01:09:55,709 --> 01:09:50,679
something like Kenneth Arnold had a pet

1608
01:09:58,050 --> 01:09:55,719
owl like then I mean that's that's that

1609
01:10:13,950 --> 01:09:58,060
was what threw me into it and everyone

1610
01:10:17,490 --> 01:10:13,960
talked about this more for the break now

1611
01:10:19,800 --> 01:10:17,500
back to exploring the bizarre with two

1612
01:10:23,010 --> 01:10:19,810
of the most electrifying researchers in

1613
01:10:29,370 --> 01:10:23,020
the Paranoid your hosts Timothy Rebecca

1614
01:10:35,040 --> 01:10:29,380
Lee and chase lists all right Tim we

1615
01:10:38,609 --> 01:10:35,050
have a question from Frank from from Las

1616
01:10:41,520 --> 01:10:38,619
Vegas and this goes to our two guests

1617
01:10:43,620 --> 01:10:41,530
tonight and Frank wants to know he says

1618
01:10:48,720 --> 01:10:43,630
that there are two camps in your apology

1619
01:10:50,660 --> 01:10:48,730
that these beans are evil and and he

1620
01:10:54,120 --> 01:10:50,670
says and they are good

1621
01:10:57,089 --> 01:10:54,130
what is your guests take on these

1622
01:11:01,350 --> 01:10:57,099
experience are they positive or negative

1623
01:11:03,810 --> 01:11:01,360
and why are they here so whoever wants

1624
01:11:06,180 --> 01:11:03,820
to answer this first go out hit okay I

1625
01:11:09,180 --> 01:11:06,190
can I can give you my version I think

1626
01:11:12,240 --> 01:11:09,190
that for some people yes they have very

1627
01:11:14,399 --> 01:11:12,250
positive experiences there are

1628
01:11:17,280 --> 01:11:14,409
spiritually enlightened they feel

1629
01:11:18,750 --> 01:11:17,290
transformed in good and positive ways

1630
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:18,760
there have been people over the years

1631
01:11:24,689 --> 01:11:22,650
who have described healing miracles

1632
01:11:26,820 --> 01:11:24,699
surrounding what they feel is their

1633
01:11:29,160 --> 01:11:26,830
experiences with this alien or alien

1634
01:11:30,990 --> 01:11:29,170
other and then you have other people who

1635
01:11:33,660 --> 01:11:31,000
yes are you know they have these

1636
01:11:35,330 --> 01:11:33,670
horrible experiences that they that

1637
01:11:36,959 --> 01:11:35,340
they're tortured almost they're

1638
01:11:38,970 --> 01:11:36,969
psychologically tortured they're

1639
01:11:41,609 --> 01:11:38,980
physically tortured they're they're

1640
01:11:44,120 --> 01:11:41,619
sexually abused by these beings or this

1641
01:11:46,379 --> 01:11:44,130
experience whatever you want to you know

1642
01:11:49,020 --> 01:11:46,389
subscribe to what it's the true

1643
01:11:52,290 --> 01:11:49,030
and they suffer actual like

1644
01:11:54,780 --> 01:11:52,300
post-traumatic stress because of it I

1645
01:11:57,180 --> 01:11:54,790
kind of tend to go with the sort of

1646
01:12:00,149 --> 01:11:57,190
Jacques Vallee idea that whatever it is

1647
01:12:02,760 --> 01:12:00,159
it seems to really be indifferent and

1648
01:12:05,129 --> 01:12:02,770
some people are having good experiences

1649
01:12:08,010 --> 01:12:05,139
some people are having bad experiences I

1650
01:12:10,859 --> 01:12:08,020
don't know why that is but you can look

1651
01:12:12,359 --> 01:12:10,869
in some cases at these sort of if you

1652
01:12:13,890 --> 01:12:12,369
look at the witness and you look at

1653
01:12:15,870 --> 01:12:13,900
where they are and in life and what

1654
01:12:19,200 --> 01:12:15,880
they're going through that may give us

1655
01:12:21,959 --> 01:12:19,210
clues to the individuals also if you

1656
01:12:24,720 --> 01:12:21,969
look at sort of the the locations and

1657
01:12:27,930 --> 01:12:24,730
the culture I do know for instance that

1658
01:12:30,899 --> 01:12:27,940
you have some very frightening UFO cases

1659
01:12:34,109 --> 01:12:30,909
in Brazil as an example that Jacques

1660
01:12:36,870 --> 01:12:34,119
Vallee actually he went in person these

1661
01:12:39,479 --> 01:12:36,880
people died this was horrific that they

1662
01:12:41,430 --> 01:12:39,489
feel that the actual people were killed

1663
01:12:43,109 --> 01:12:41,440
because of their UFO experiences and

1664
01:12:46,109 --> 01:12:43,119
they were and then if you look at

1665
01:12:49,410 --> 01:12:46,119
poltergeist cases they - in Brazil tend

1666
01:12:52,140 --> 01:12:49,420
to be particularly violent that people

1667
01:12:53,970 --> 01:12:52,150
have died because of their experiences

1668
01:12:56,850 --> 01:12:53,980
where you don't necessarily see that in

1669
01:13:00,359 --> 01:12:56,860
other areas of the world so if we start

1670
01:13:02,370 --> 01:13:00,369
you know we did we did do a book Tim and

1671
01:13:05,370 --> 01:13:02,380
I worked on it a long with some other

1672
01:13:07,229 --> 01:13:05,380
researchers a medieval and beyond and it

1673
01:13:08,939 --> 01:13:07,239
was kind of probably a Mis titled a book

1674
01:13:11,490 --> 01:13:08,949
because there was only one chapter on a

1675
01:13:13,820 --> 01:13:11,500
medieval and the rest of it was

1676
01:13:16,229 --> 01:13:13,830
contributions by different researchers

1677
01:13:18,570 --> 01:13:16,239
who he's had on the show and some we

1678
01:13:20,970 --> 01:13:18,580
haven't about how there is a link

1679
01:13:25,500 --> 01:13:20,980
between all this phenomena and and some

1680
01:13:28,649 --> 01:13:25,510
of it it does take on the form of of of

1681
01:13:30,810 --> 01:13:28,659
like poltergeist phenomena we had a case

1682
01:13:33,600 --> 01:13:30,820
up in Oregon that I investigated back in

1683
01:13:36,479 --> 01:13:33,610
the 1960s we called it the the crawling

1684
01:13:38,790 --> 01:13:36,489
lights because these things were seen at

1685
01:13:40,439 --> 01:13:38,800
first crawling across the lawn towards

1686
01:13:42,660 --> 01:13:40,449
the house and then several days later

1687
01:13:47,760 --> 01:13:42,670
they were actually seen crawling up and

1688
01:13:49,649 --> 01:13:47,770
down the the the walls inside the the

1689
01:13:52,260 --> 01:13:49,659
house but it was the type of thing where

1690
01:13:53,340 --> 01:13:52,270
there were no beams it was just the you

1691
01:13:55,709 --> 01:13:53,350
know the lights itself

1692
01:13:57,780 --> 01:13:55,719
crawling up and up and down it wasn't

1693
01:14:00,330 --> 01:13:57,790
like somebody was you know like shining

1694
01:14:02,879 --> 01:14:00,340
a flashlight through the

1695
01:14:04,830 --> 01:14:02,889
through the window and we've had well

1696
01:14:09,780 --> 01:14:04,840
it's also a case of Tim remember the one

1697
01:14:12,600 --> 01:14:09,790
in Black Forest Colorado oh yes I think

1698
01:14:15,149 --> 01:14:12,610
his name is Lee who had all these

1699
01:14:17,490 --> 01:14:15,159
experiences where faces were appearing

1700
01:14:20,100 --> 01:14:17,500
in his mirror and and beams of light

1701
01:14:22,530 --> 01:14:20,110
were shooting out of different rooms and

1702
01:14:26,490 --> 01:14:22,540
they actually photographed this inside

1703
01:14:28,500 --> 01:14:26,500
and outside of the house as as well so

1704
01:14:30,689 --> 01:14:28,510
there certainly is a what I always say

1705
01:14:33,680 --> 01:14:30,699
that the the same things that happen and

1706
01:14:37,020 --> 01:14:33,690
a UFO landing site are likely to happen

1707
01:14:40,709 --> 01:14:37,030
inside the UFO seance room or haunted

1708
01:14:43,260 --> 01:14:40,719
house sure and then as far as an agenda

1709
01:14:45,089 --> 01:14:43,270
or why this is happening the the only

1710
01:14:47,310 --> 01:14:45,099
thing I can say for certain in my

1711
01:14:48,899 --> 01:14:47,320
opinion is that there seems to be some

1712
01:14:50,479 --> 01:14:48,909
sort of whether it's negative or

1713
01:14:53,430 --> 01:14:50,489
positive it has some sort of

1714
01:14:55,310 --> 01:14:53,440
transformation effect on people they

1715
01:14:57,450 --> 01:14:55,320
seem to go through this transformation

1716
01:15:00,169 --> 01:14:57,460
because of the experience they're not

1717
01:15:04,800 --> 01:15:00,179
they come out on the other side of it

1718
01:15:06,270 --> 01:15:04,810
changed in different ways and and that

1719
01:15:09,959 --> 01:15:06,280
is the only thing I can think I can't

1720
01:15:13,410 --> 01:15:09,969
really think of an agenda as to why we

1721
01:15:16,649 --> 01:15:13,420
probably will never know but it does

1722
01:15:19,169 --> 01:15:16,659
seem to be almost indifferent because it

1723
01:15:21,570 --> 01:15:19,179
can be positive it can be negative you

1724
01:15:24,629 --> 01:15:21,580
know I see a name here that somehow I

1725
01:15:26,930 --> 01:15:24,639
recognize but I can't seem to place it

1726
01:15:30,660 --> 01:15:26,940
dr. arg Owen

1727
01:15:34,260 --> 01:15:30,670
yes he actually did some experience

1728
01:15:37,109 --> 01:15:34,270
experiments in the 1970s in Toronto in

1729
01:15:41,640 --> 01:15:37,119
regards to this creation of a ghost

1730
01:15:44,459 --> 01:15:41,650
oh yes yes they did a seance Phillip

1731
01:15:47,129 --> 01:15:44,469
wasn't yes and they had some very

1732
01:15:49,919 --> 01:15:47,139
interesting results in regards to they

1733
01:15:51,750 --> 01:15:49,929
what they did is they took a various

1734
01:15:53,700 --> 01:15:51,760
group of people from the general public

1735
01:15:55,709 --> 01:15:53,710
and they put them together over a period

1736
01:15:57,990 --> 01:15:55,719
of months and their purpose was to

1737
01:16:00,990 --> 01:15:58,000
create sort of a fictional ghost story

1738
01:16:03,180 --> 01:16:01,000
and more or less meditate on it and do a

1739
01:16:05,850 --> 01:16:03,190
seance based around the fictional ghost

1740
01:16:08,189 --> 01:16:05,860
to see if they could create poltergeists

1741
01:16:10,649 --> 01:16:08,199
like effects and while they never had an

1742
01:16:12,839 --> 01:16:10,659
apparition what they did do is they got

1743
01:16:14,250 --> 01:16:12,849
a lot of the wraps and the knocking that

1744
01:16:15,600 --> 01:16:14,260
was I was investigating

1745
01:16:17,310 --> 01:16:15,610
then witnessed by several different

1746
01:16:20,460 --> 01:16:17,320
people including being filmed on

1747
01:16:23,400 --> 01:16:20,470
television and this is something that

1748
01:16:26,430 --> 01:16:23,410
has always inspired me in regards to

1749
01:16:29,940 --> 01:16:26,440
creating perhaps a UFO or creating

1750
01:16:31,740 --> 01:16:29,950
mentally a grey alien but I've wrestled

1751
01:16:33,750 --> 01:16:31,750
with a lot of ethical questions in

1752
01:16:38,490 --> 01:16:33,760
regards to that but it is something that

1753
01:16:43,440 --> 01:16:38,500
I am sort of working on well it's Mike

1754
01:16:46,500 --> 01:16:43,450
do you have a comment on the question um

1755
01:16:47,940 --> 01:16:46,510
well I mean so there's a fellow named

1756
01:16:50,940 --> 01:16:47,950
ray Hernandez who started an

1757
01:16:52,800 --> 01:16:50,950
organization called fre fre yeah I think

1758
01:16:57,030 --> 01:16:52,810
it's actually been changed the name has

1759
01:17:00,320 --> 01:16:57,040
been changed but he he's an amazing guy

1760
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:00,330
yeah oh god just and so he did a like

1761
01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:02,410
statistical research and had folks from

1762
01:17:09,090 --> 01:17:05,530
Harvard statisticians scientists you

1763
01:17:10,890 --> 01:17:09,100
know doing these the research and they

1764
01:17:12,450 --> 01:17:10,900
talked to many thousands of people who

1765
01:17:13,860 --> 01:17:12,460
claimed the direct contact experience

1766
01:17:17,130 --> 01:17:13,870
and I think the number is roughly around

1767
01:17:18,590 --> 01:17:17,140
70 or 75 percent of the people say that

1768
01:17:21,450 --> 01:17:18,600
their experiences are positive and

1769
01:17:22,560 --> 01:17:21,460
conversely 30 or 25 percent of the

1770
01:17:24,690 --> 01:17:22,570
people say their experiences are

1771
01:17:26,250 --> 01:17:24,700
negative there's I'm doing this from my

1772
01:17:27,870 --> 01:17:26,260
head but somewhere in there there's

1773
01:17:29,850 --> 01:17:27,880
people who had neutral experiences but

1774
01:17:32,010 --> 01:17:29,860
that's that's kinda how it's been

1775
01:17:34,320 --> 01:17:32,020
playing out so on you know like well

1776
01:17:37,110 --> 01:17:34,330
then the good experiences outnumber the

1777
01:17:39,150 --> 01:17:37,120
bad makes it good that that's not really

1778
01:17:41,250 --> 01:17:39,160
how it but if you've had a bad

1779
01:17:42,390 --> 01:17:41,260
experience whatever hearing about a

1780
01:17:44,220 --> 01:17:42,400
bunch of people with good experiences

1781
01:17:47,340 --> 01:17:44,230
doesn't make your bad experience any

1782
01:17:48,870 --> 01:17:47,350
better but what I'm finding and I had to

1783
01:17:51,960 --> 01:17:48,880
kind of wrestle with us cuz I stepped

1784
01:17:53,700 --> 01:17:51,970
into this owl research you know trying

1785
01:17:55,590 --> 01:17:53,710
to likely I'm gonna remain neutral you

1786
01:17:58,320 --> 01:17:55,600
know this UFO experiences a bagworms

1787
01:18:04,320 --> 01:17:58,330
it's got a good and bad it's in what I

1788
01:18:06,510 --> 01:18:04,330
found is that the the owl the people who

1789
01:18:11,430 --> 01:18:06,520
are claiming these owl contact with UFOs

1790
01:18:14,610 --> 01:18:11,440
and owls and this is this is just going

1791
01:18:16,200 --> 01:18:14,620
off a straight mood right I mean I don't

1792
01:18:19,230 --> 01:18:16,210
I haven't gone through and created a

1793
01:18:21,480 --> 01:18:19,240
spreadsheet and and and listed all the

1794
01:18:23,760 --> 01:18:21,490
people's experiences good and bad my

1795
01:18:25,530 --> 01:18:23,770
sense is that there's the majority of

1796
01:18:27,989 --> 01:18:25,540
these owl experiences are very positive

1797
01:18:31,349 --> 01:18:27,999
a lot very positive but could be

1798
01:18:33,689 --> 01:18:31,359
seen in a positive light and Sue said

1799
01:18:36,629 --> 01:18:33,699
something um you know this is a

1800
01:18:39,659 --> 01:18:36,639
transformational experience in you know

1801
01:18:40,829 --> 01:18:39,669
people have UFO contact and she said it

1802
01:18:43,229 --> 01:18:40,839
straight up earlier that her own

1803
01:18:47,129 --> 01:18:43,239
experience she had to reassess her her

1804
01:18:49,559 --> 01:18:47,139
belief system and that's very common I'm

1805
01:18:52,619 --> 01:18:49,569
so so someone who sees a light in the

1806
01:18:54,209 --> 01:18:52,629
sky that that plays out like a UFO you

1807
01:18:55,859 --> 01:18:54,219
know that's one thing and the people who

1808
01:18:57,809 --> 01:18:55,869
see the little gray being standing in

1809
01:18:59,789 --> 01:18:57,819
their bedroom that's another thing both

1810
01:19:04,019 --> 01:18:59,799
of these events are gonna are going to

1811
01:19:07,229 --> 01:19:04,029
force anyone to to wrestle with the big

1812
01:19:08,429 --> 01:19:07,239
questions you know like the the you know

1813
01:19:11,009 --> 01:19:08,439
your junior high school science teacher

1814
01:19:13,169 --> 01:19:11,019
is gonna tell your reality is one way

1815
01:19:14,999 --> 01:19:13,179
and once you've had these experiences

1816
01:19:16,649 --> 01:19:15,009
you're gonna be you're gonna have your

1817
01:19:18,509 --> 01:19:16,659
own direct experience that it ain't that

1818
01:19:21,599 --> 01:19:18,519
way at all there's something much more

1819
01:19:24,629 --> 01:19:21,609
multi-layer to all this so my son my

1820
01:19:27,659 --> 01:19:24,639
junior high science teacher flunked me

1821
01:19:30,899 --> 01:19:27,669
anyway so I could care less because I

1822
01:19:32,669 --> 01:19:30,909
gave a report on astronomy because I was

1823
01:19:35,339 --> 01:19:32,679
into you know astronomy you know and he

1824
01:19:37,679 --> 01:19:35,349
said oh I must have copied it from the

1825
01:19:39,839 --> 01:19:37,689
encyclopedia because I knew you know

1826
01:19:42,509 --> 01:19:39,849
what too many of the answers you know

1827
01:19:44,639 --> 01:19:42,519
like a somebody in junior high can't

1828
01:19:47,609 --> 01:19:44,649
have a brain or intelligence or what

1829
01:19:49,349 --> 01:19:47,619
have you not well but yes but he's also

1830
01:19:51,359 --> 01:19:49,359
and that my point was being that he

1831
01:19:52,679 --> 01:19:51,369
defined you know like there's that

1832
01:19:54,389 --> 01:19:52,689
there's a consensus how we're supposed

1833
01:19:57,599 --> 01:19:54,399
to define reality in our culture yeah

1834
01:19:58,979 --> 01:19:57,609
there is yes in it and when you get down

1835
01:19:59,639 --> 01:19:58,989
to the nitty-gritty whether I mean I

1836
01:20:02,849 --> 01:19:59,649
don't care whether you're doing

1837
01:20:04,469 --> 01:20:02,859
poltergeist stuff or or you know even

1838
01:20:05,579 --> 01:20:04,479
Marian apparitions or something like

1839
01:20:08,159 --> 01:20:05,589
that you're gonna find out very quickly

1840
01:20:11,459 --> 01:20:08,169
that that reality doesn't match what

1841
01:20:14,069 --> 01:20:11,469
we're being told but um and yes so they

1842
01:20:16,919 --> 01:20:14,079
all would be the the totem animal like

1843
01:20:19,919 --> 01:20:16,929
the symbolic symbol I guess symbolic

1844
01:20:24,029 --> 01:20:19,929
symbols redundant but like the symbol of

1845
01:20:26,219 --> 01:20:24,039
the of the transformative experience and

1846
01:20:29,009 --> 01:20:26,229
and I've really come to see it that way

1847
01:20:31,439 --> 01:20:29,019
and I've also sensed that these even the

1848
01:20:34,049 --> 01:20:31,449
people have the good experiences like

1849
01:20:37,649 --> 01:20:34,059
this stuff ain't easy this stuff is hard

1850
01:20:40,109 --> 01:20:37,659
right now maybe a good positive vibe in

1851
01:20:41,680 --> 01:20:40,119
the moment and they're maybe after years

1852
01:20:45,729 --> 01:20:41,690
of wrestling with it a

1853
01:20:47,260 --> 01:20:45,739
a spiritual change to the positive well

1854
01:20:51,280 --> 01:20:47,270
now do you think certain people are

1855
01:20:53,439 --> 01:20:51,290
picked like or were you chosen we did a

1856
01:20:55,510 --> 01:20:53,449
book UFO repeaters you know the camera

1857
01:20:57,939 --> 01:20:55,520
doesn't lie where some people seem to

1858
01:21:00,250 --> 01:20:57,949
have the uncanny ability you give them a

1859
01:21:02,850 --> 01:21:00,260
camera and they go out at night and pop

1860
01:21:05,560 --> 01:21:02,860
pop pop here's unusual things that

1861
01:21:07,300 --> 01:21:05,570
appear on the I was going to say film

1862
01:21:11,320 --> 01:21:07,310
there is no such thing anymore but

1863
01:21:13,510 --> 01:21:11,330
better you know a peer and there doesn't

1864
01:21:16,000 --> 01:21:13,520
seem to be a rhyme or reason for it we

1865
01:21:18,430 --> 01:21:16,010
have a fellow here in New York market

1866
01:21:22,570 --> 01:21:18,440
breaker horf he can aim his camera

1867
01:21:25,390 --> 01:21:22,580
outside his livingroom window and and

1868
01:21:27,459 --> 01:21:25,400
and photograph strange things in the in

1869
01:21:29,770 --> 01:21:27,469
the sky you know I mean it just seems

1870
01:21:32,860 --> 01:21:29,780
like some people I was going to say

1871
01:21:35,200 --> 01:21:32,870
chosen but that might be too strong of a

1872
01:21:39,610 --> 01:21:35,210
I don't think it's too strong words well

1873
01:21:41,800 --> 01:21:39,620
maybe it isn't just I know mark I know

1874
01:21:43,570 --> 01:21:41,810
marks think I ought to and I mean some

1875
01:21:45,010 --> 01:21:43,580
of the some of the images you know a

1876
01:21:46,570 --> 01:21:45,020
certain percentage of them are like wow

1877
01:21:48,010 --> 01:21:46,580
I look at that thing and a maybe it's

1878
01:21:51,340 --> 01:21:48,020
just a little dot in the sky I don't

1879
01:21:53,470 --> 01:21:51,350
know others are very remarkable well you

1880
01:21:54,370 --> 01:21:53,480
know the early ones like he took in

1881
01:21:56,260 --> 01:21:54,380
Brewster New York

1882
01:21:59,500 --> 01:21:56,270
you can actually see what appeared to be

1883
01:22:02,229 --> 01:21:59,510
a silhouette of somebody inside the the

1884
01:22:04,240 --> 01:22:02,239
port the window in the in the craft and

1885
01:22:11,530 --> 01:22:04,250
I will say that mark Brinkerhoff is as

1886
01:22:14,080 --> 01:22:11,540
as radiant and using any person that's

1887
01:22:17,830 --> 01:22:14,090
walking this earth right now I would I

1888
01:22:20,610 --> 01:22:17,840
would agree we ran into him up in Pine

1889
01:22:22,660 --> 01:22:20,620
Bush you know they had a little mini

1890
01:22:25,060 --> 01:22:22,670
conference up there I guess they do

1891
01:22:28,689 --> 01:22:25,070
every year and now there must be what

1892
01:22:30,160 --> 01:22:28,699
about twelve UFO conventions festivals I

1893
01:22:33,010 --> 01:22:30,170
guess that's the word for it now around

1894
01:22:35,770 --> 01:22:33,020
the around the country you know and the

1895
01:22:38,110 --> 01:22:35,780
of course probably Point Pleasant is the

1896
01:22:43,420 --> 01:22:38,120
largest and you got McMinnville and

1897
01:22:46,090 --> 01:22:43,430
Exeter New Hampshire you know and now

1898
01:22:48,310 --> 01:22:46,100
what would you say micah is the the can

1899
01:22:51,430 --> 01:22:48,320
you name us maybe one or two cases it

1900
01:22:54,580 --> 01:22:51,440
you follow that best are examples of

1901
01:22:55,330 --> 01:22:54,590
what you feel is a good solid case that

1902
01:22:57,459 --> 01:22:55,340
brings in

1903
01:22:59,470 --> 01:22:57,469
some of this paranormal aspect I mean

1904
01:23:02,050 --> 01:22:59,480
what what are your your favorite cases

1905
01:23:04,030 --> 01:23:02,060
that you look to oh yeah well I'm sort

1906
01:23:06,189 --> 01:23:04,040
of like my I'm being swamped with my own

1907
01:23:07,390 --> 01:23:06,199
cases and I mean I would be tough for me

1908
01:23:09,160 --> 01:23:07,400
just to come up with something right off

1909
01:23:13,240 --> 01:23:09,170
the top you know honestly I'm I'm more

1910
01:23:14,800 --> 01:23:13,250
interested like I almost like the book

1911
01:23:16,570 --> 01:23:14,810
that I wrote I kind of say it's a UFO

1912
01:23:17,740 --> 01:23:16,580
book without any UFOs that's not true

1913
01:23:19,629 --> 01:23:17,750
because there's definitely people who

1914
01:23:21,129 --> 01:23:19,639
describe UFOs in it there's a handful of

1915
01:23:24,149 --> 01:23:21,139
accounts where people pointed things in

1916
01:23:26,439 --> 01:23:24,159
the sky and I and I recount those but

1917
01:23:28,479 --> 01:23:26,449
what I'm more interested in is this

1918
01:23:30,820 --> 01:23:28,489
outlying aspect this kind of mystical

1919
01:23:34,600 --> 01:23:30,830
aspect these kind of elusive things that

1920
01:23:36,669 --> 01:23:34,610
show up in in the research and and I

1921
01:23:37,899 --> 01:23:36,679
mean I could I mean if you I could talk

1922
01:23:42,640 --> 01:23:37,909
all night about some of these things but

1923
01:23:46,570 --> 01:23:42,650
there's one fellow who I'll try to make

1924
01:23:49,450 --> 01:23:46,580
this quick I guess but um he he had a

1925
01:23:51,550 --> 01:23:49,460
handful of experiences and and so he so

1926
01:23:54,220 --> 01:23:51,560
he's had experiences that absolutely

1927
01:23:56,890 --> 01:23:54,230
play out within the definition of UFO

1928
01:23:58,810 --> 01:23:56,900
abduction and UFO contact and like sue

1929
01:24:01,000 --> 01:23:58,820
you ask him and he says I don't know I

1930
01:24:05,200 --> 01:24:01,010
have no I can't go there like he's in

1931
01:24:06,520 --> 01:24:05,210
but you know from an outsider listening

1932
01:24:10,240 --> 01:24:06,530
to it that's what it sounds like so I

1933
01:24:14,109 --> 01:24:10,250
can't speak for him he um he went on a

1934
01:24:15,820 --> 01:24:14,119
hike with his kids and there was an owl

1935
01:24:17,410 --> 01:24:15,830
in a tree and it followed them while

1936
01:24:19,510 --> 01:24:17,420
they were hiking on this trail his kids

1937
01:24:20,770 --> 01:24:19,520
were very young and he said it the kids

1938
01:24:22,390 --> 01:24:20,780
loved it they thought it was the coolest

1939
01:24:24,370 --> 01:24:22,400
thing this all would fly along I would

1940
01:24:25,959 --> 01:24:24,380
fly with him and then it kind of creeped

1941
01:24:28,419 --> 01:24:25,969
him out so he got home that night

1942
01:24:30,430 --> 01:24:28,429
and he read aloud from a book and the

1943
01:24:32,939 --> 01:24:30,440
book was called Seibu and it's a little

1944
01:24:35,950 --> 01:24:32,949
kids book and it's about an owl hoo-hoo

1945
01:24:38,890 --> 01:24:35,960
excuse me it's about a ghost who it's

1946
01:24:40,780 --> 01:24:38,900
coming on Halloween and the ghost is

1947
01:24:42,010 --> 01:24:40,790
tried gonna scare people because it's

1948
01:24:43,180 --> 01:24:42,020
Halloween and that's what goes to on

1949
01:24:45,820 --> 01:24:43,190
Halloween there's gonna say boo and

1950
01:24:48,220 --> 01:24:45,830
scare people but it just couldn't find

1951
01:24:50,260 --> 01:24:48,230
his voice and it couldn't say boo and

1952
01:24:53,589 --> 01:24:50,270
when you say there's in in like little

1953
01:24:57,040 --> 01:24:53,599
kids book he the the ghost meets a cow

1954
01:24:59,800 --> 01:24:57,050
in the cow says Moo and he says Moo so

1955
01:25:01,600 --> 01:24:59,810
then he meets an owl and the owl says

1956
01:25:03,430 --> 01:25:01,610
hoo and he says who so they can't quite

1957
01:25:05,500 --> 01:25:03,440
say boo and by the end of the book he

1958
01:25:07,180 --> 01:25:05,510
finds his voice but he's reading aloud

1959
01:25:09,069 --> 01:25:07,190
from this book that the kids picked the

1960
01:25:11,260 --> 01:25:09,079
day they saw the owl

1961
01:25:14,169 --> 01:25:11,270
in this fellow's name is Ben and there's

1962
01:25:19,120 --> 01:25:14,179
a line in the book and it says and then

1963
01:25:20,140 --> 01:25:19,130
Ben saw an owl up in a pine tree and at

1964
01:25:22,240 --> 01:25:20,150
that moment the dog starts barking

1965
01:25:24,160 --> 01:25:22,250
downstairs so he runs downstairs in the

1966
01:25:28,089 --> 01:25:24,170
opens door there's nothing out there

1967
01:25:30,160 --> 01:25:28,099
he feels impelled to look up work and he

1968
01:25:31,839 --> 01:25:30,170
looks up and there's an owl in the pine

1969
01:25:34,689 --> 01:25:31,849
tree nice guys name is Ben the last

1970
01:25:36,850 --> 01:25:34,699
words he wrote is and spoke aloud were

1971
01:25:38,850 --> 01:25:36,860
and then Ben looked up in the tall pine

1972
01:25:44,410 --> 01:25:38,860
tree and saw an owl that's exactly what

1973
01:25:47,890 --> 01:25:44,420
happened now this is a this is a string

1974
01:25:50,770 --> 01:25:47,900
of synchronicities in working with this

1975
01:25:53,680 --> 01:25:50,780
in the book there's a few more stories

1976
01:25:55,780 --> 01:25:53,690
that play into this but Ben has been

1977
01:25:57,459 --> 01:25:55,790
struggling to find his voice in he's

1978
01:26:00,339 --> 01:25:57,469
basically saying this is the same story

1979
01:26:02,010 --> 01:26:00,349
this is my story I am struggling to find

1980
01:26:07,299 --> 01:26:02,020
my voice to try to talk about this stuff

1981
01:26:10,810 --> 01:26:07,309
he sees that event and as do I is

1982
01:26:13,780 --> 01:26:10,820
somehow orchestrated to allow to like

1983
01:26:16,930 --> 01:26:13,790
reinforce that he needs to speak aloud

1984
01:26:18,669 --> 01:26:16,940
the the story is of a ghost named Ben

1985
01:26:21,390 --> 01:26:18,679
trying to find his voice he's confronted

1986
01:26:23,500 --> 01:26:21,400
with an owl this is someone whose UFO

1987
01:26:29,140 --> 01:26:23,510
experiences that certainly play out like

1988
01:26:30,459 --> 01:26:29,150
UFO contact experiences and he um he has

1989
01:26:32,379 --> 01:26:30,469
this at this experience was a little

1990
01:26:35,770 --> 01:26:32,389
kids book so this is the kind of stuff

1991
01:26:37,359 --> 01:26:35,780
that really lights a fire for me you

1992
01:26:39,430 --> 01:26:37,369
know like I'm this is the kind of stuff

1993
01:26:42,899 --> 01:26:39,440
I want to explore and want if I want to

1994
01:26:45,669 --> 01:26:42,909
pull on these threads same with you know

1995
01:26:48,339 --> 01:26:45,679
there are a lot of people who have had

1996
01:26:51,490 --> 01:26:48,349
these synchronicities in fact uh Raymond

1997
01:26:53,589 --> 01:26:51,500
Fowler did a whole book on UFOs and

1998
01:26:55,510 --> 01:26:53,599
synchronicities and the book that I did

1999
01:26:58,270 --> 01:26:55,520
about philip k dick and my experiences

2000
01:27:00,100 --> 01:26:58,280
runs about for what 440 pages you could

2001
01:27:02,979 --> 01:27:00,110
use it as a door stopper or something

2002
01:27:06,419 --> 01:27:02,989
you know and and I will also add that

2003
01:27:10,149 --> 01:27:06,429
Raymond Fowler has owl right in his name

2004
01:27:14,229 --> 01:27:10,159
whoa that deny that doesn't mean much a

2005
01:27:16,330 --> 01:27:14,239
lot of people are good one though and

2006
01:27:18,490 --> 01:27:16,340
also Raymond Fowler has come out with

2007
01:27:20,350 --> 01:27:18,500
his own UFO contact experiences he's

2008
01:27:21,980 --> 01:27:20,360
basically said straight up he's a UFO

2009
01:27:25,470 --> 01:27:21,990
abductee

2010
01:27:28,530 --> 01:27:25,480
so now okay all these synchronicities

2011
01:27:31,560 --> 01:27:28,540
and and so-called coincidences the thing

2012
01:27:33,600 --> 01:27:31,570
that I'm struggling with is is there

2013
01:27:37,770 --> 01:27:33,610
somebody that's organizing this I mean

2014
01:27:39,360 --> 01:27:37,780
is there a matrix control system there

2015
01:27:41,490 --> 01:27:39,370
sure seems to be isn't there I mean I

2016
01:27:43,530 --> 01:27:41,500
sure feel like there's like somebody

2017
01:27:44,370 --> 01:27:43,540
like it feels like we're in the you know

2018
01:27:46,230 --> 01:27:44,380
what he called me I like in the

2019
01:27:48,270 --> 01:27:46,240
laboratory right there's a maze of the

2020
01:27:50,430 --> 01:27:48,280
rats are in right and we are somehow

2021
01:27:51,990 --> 01:27:50,440
specially bred rats where we don't have

2022
01:27:54,090 --> 01:27:52,000
the ability to look up out of the maze

2023
01:27:55,950 --> 01:27:54,100
right but they whoever they might be

2024
01:27:57,120 --> 01:27:55,960
I feel I see they're seen with her

2025
01:27:58,860 --> 01:27:57,130
clipboards and they got their little

2026
01:28:00,750 --> 01:27:58,870
white lab coats and they're looking into

2027
01:28:03,120 --> 01:28:00,760
the maze they can see us but we cannot

2028
01:28:04,920 --> 01:28:03,130
see them excepting very occasionally

2029
01:28:10,250 --> 01:28:04,930
we'll get a glimpse of them this is you

2030
01:28:13,260 --> 01:28:10,260
know Jhansi Lily who wrote the ie the

2031
01:28:16,380 --> 01:28:13,270
cyclone I believe it was called now he

2032
01:28:18,120 --> 01:28:16,390
had a course he was the inventor if

2033
01:28:22,040 --> 01:28:18,130
that's the right word of the flotation

2034
01:28:24,000 --> 01:28:22,050
tank and he had a quite a number of

2035
01:28:27,120 --> 01:28:24,010
synchronicities that almost seemed to

2036
01:28:30,380 --> 01:28:27,130
have gained control of his his life and

2037
01:28:35,250 --> 01:28:30,390
he thought actually that there was a

2038
01:28:37,890 --> 01:28:35,260
synchronicity Review Board and I'm not

2039
01:28:41,570 --> 01:28:37,900
so sure that I would disagree with that

2040
01:28:44,610 --> 01:28:41,580
because these things do seem to be

2041
01:28:48,060 --> 01:28:44,620
organized and and persistent and just

2042
01:28:50,370 --> 01:28:48,070
like some people are UFO repeaters I am

2043
01:28:52,200 --> 01:28:50,380
a synchronicity repeater and other

2044
01:28:54,450 --> 01:28:52,210
people go through life and they don't

2045
01:28:55,980 --> 01:28:54,460
seem to have outside of thinking of

2046
01:28:59,430 --> 01:28:55,990
somebody and they call on the phone or

2047
01:29:02,690 --> 01:28:59,440
looking up in the clock says 111 or

2048
01:29:05,610 --> 01:29:02,700
something like that they seem to have no

2049
01:29:08,880 --> 01:29:05,620
synchronicities of any consequence

2050
01:29:13,110 --> 01:29:08,890
whatsoever I don't know it's just it's

2051
01:29:15,180 --> 01:29:13,120
it's a wild and wooly and hairy subject

2052
01:29:17,070 --> 01:29:15,190
I guess and I think synchronicities are

2053
01:29:18,750 --> 01:29:17,080
I mean so you go to a UFO convention

2054
01:29:20,220 --> 01:29:18,760
right there you sit in a room with with

2055
01:29:24,180 --> 01:29:20,230
the which I have done with the people

2056
01:29:26,250 --> 01:29:24,190
who have a UFO support group for folks

2057
01:29:27,630 --> 01:29:26,260
who are experienced or abductees or

2058
01:29:29,940 --> 01:29:27,640
whatever word you want to use and you

2059
01:29:31,560 --> 01:29:29,950
ask the question you pose the question

2060
01:29:34,020 --> 01:29:31,570
has anyone in this room what have you

2061
01:29:35,200 --> 01:29:34,030
had experiences with synchronicities it

2062
01:29:38,110 --> 01:29:35,210
is like everyone

2063
01:29:40,120 --> 01:29:38,120
the room is is like it is they say it

2064
01:29:45,040 --> 01:29:40,130
happens 2,000 times a day there they're

2065
01:29:47,709 --> 01:29:45,050
hit so hard so endlessly so on I mean it

2066
01:29:50,500 --> 01:29:47,719
is so if following that logic people who

2067
01:29:52,990 --> 01:29:50,510
have UFO experiences have synchronicity

2068
01:29:54,550 --> 01:29:53,000
I also I remember I so I read this I

2069
01:29:56,020 --> 01:29:54,560
wrote an essay about synchronicity a

2070
01:29:58,000 --> 01:29:56,030
while ago and I and I kind of talked to

2071
01:30:00,280 --> 01:29:58,010
a friend of mine and said you know um

2072
01:30:02,770 --> 01:30:00,290
people who have UFO experiences have

2073
01:30:04,570 --> 01:30:02,780
more synchronicities than Joe normal and

2074
01:30:06,040 --> 01:30:04,580
she looked at me and she kind of rolled

2075
01:30:07,180 --> 01:30:06,050
her eyes and she said anyone on a

2076
01:30:08,830 --> 01:30:07,190
spiritual path would have

2077
01:30:11,260 --> 01:30:08,840
synchronicities and I think that's true

2078
01:30:12,850 --> 01:30:11,270
I think someone like you know someone

2079
01:30:14,320 --> 01:30:12,860
meditating in a mountaintop is gonna

2080
01:30:17,880 --> 01:30:14,330
have more synchronicities than joe

2081
01:30:22,170 --> 01:30:17,890
normal so on that you follow that logic

2082
01:30:24,760 --> 01:30:22,180
then UFO contact is a spiritual path

2083
01:30:28,300 --> 01:30:24,770
sure and synchronicities are also

2084
01:30:30,220 --> 01:30:28,310
considered their their magic I mean they

2085
01:30:32,110 --> 01:30:30,230
they are magic you can actually create

2086
01:30:33,400 --> 01:30:32,120
synchronicities and I often sometimes

2087
01:30:34,990 --> 01:30:33,410
speculate with some of the

2088
01:30:38,470 --> 01:30:35,000
synchronicities are we creating them

2089
01:30:40,090 --> 01:30:38,480
from the future for ourselves this is

2090
01:30:42,790 --> 01:30:40,100
this is opening a whole other can of

2091
01:30:44,709 --> 01:30:42,800
worms but I do see the the strong

2092
01:30:47,020 --> 01:30:44,719
connection between UFO experience and

2093
01:30:50,770 --> 01:30:47,030
synchronicity I think it's worth

2094
01:30:52,300 --> 01:30:50,780
exploring more unfortunately we are

2095
01:30:54,160 --> 01:30:52,310
getting close to the end of the program

2096
01:30:56,620 --> 01:30:54,170
so I want to give our guests the

2097
01:30:59,110 --> 01:30:56,630
opportunity to let our listeners know

2098
01:31:00,820 --> 01:30:59,120
where they can find out more about em

2099
01:31:03,040 --> 01:31:00,830
new books

2100
01:31:07,540 --> 01:31:03,050
places you're going to be speaking maybe

2101
01:31:09,910 --> 01:31:07,550
in the near future so Susan let's let's

2102
01:31:11,350 --> 01:31:09,920
go with you first what's what's going on

2103
01:31:13,420 --> 01:31:11,360
with you and where can our listeners

2104
01:31:15,640 --> 01:31:13,430
find out more about you well I'm

2105
01:31:18,700 --> 01:31:15,650
currently in research mode for a book

2106
01:31:21,040 --> 01:31:18,710
and of course please you know check out

2107
01:31:22,630 --> 01:31:21,050
Robby Graham's book UFOs reframing the

2108
01:31:25,120 --> 01:31:22,640
debate where I have the essay and the

2109
01:31:27,310 --> 01:31:25,130
other essays are great and then give you

2110
01:31:30,040 --> 01:31:27,320
a lot of food for thought you can find

2111
01:31:32,050 --> 01:31:30,050
out what I'm up to on Susan st. Clair

2112
01:31:38,650 --> 01:31:32,060
comm and so that's Susan

2113
01:31:40,150 --> 01:31:38,660
St Clair CLA I are calm all right that

2114
01:31:42,100 --> 01:31:40,160
gives a list of other things on there

2115
01:31:44,830 --> 01:31:42,110
too and links to stuff I've done and

2116
01:31:48,310 --> 01:31:44,840
other places I've written for we have

2117
01:31:51,340 --> 01:31:48,320
that we also have that leak in on our

2118
01:31:53,890 --> 01:31:51,350
website here at the K cor radio so and

2119
01:31:55,300 --> 01:31:53,900
Mike what about you you've got a new

2120
01:31:57,810 --> 01:31:55,310
book coming out real soon don't you

2121
01:31:59,770 --> 01:31:57,820
I hope it's real soon oh my gosh it's

2122
01:32:01,990 --> 01:31:59,780
somehow these things just take forever

2123
01:32:04,270 --> 01:32:02,000
yes I'm I'm working on a companion to

2124
01:32:06,130 --> 01:32:04,280
the owl book basically I had so much

2125
01:32:08,410 --> 01:32:06,140
stuff I had leftover stuff that wouldn't

2126
01:32:10,270 --> 01:32:08,420
fit in the owl book and I'm so it's it's

2127
01:32:11,860 --> 01:32:10,280
gonna be about a 250 page book that's

2128
01:32:13,930 --> 01:32:11,870
coming out very soon with more owl

2129
01:32:16,270 --> 01:32:13,940
stories where people are allowed to tell

2130
01:32:17,980 --> 01:32:16,280
their their experiences more completely

2131
01:32:19,690 --> 01:32:17,990
and more fully that was one of the

2132
01:32:21,640 --> 01:32:19,700
heartbreaking things about doing this I

2133
01:32:24,070 --> 01:32:21,650
had an idea like he wanted like present

2134
01:32:26,740 --> 01:32:24,080
an idea and you kind of like cherry-pick

2135
01:32:29,110 --> 01:32:26,750
a tiny little fracked a lot of someone's

2136
01:32:30,250 --> 01:32:29,120
overall grand experience and then I just

2137
01:32:32,380 --> 01:32:30,260
broke my heart that I couldn't tell

2138
01:32:34,630 --> 01:32:32,390
people's stories more completely that

2139
01:32:37,120 --> 01:32:34,640
book I hope will be out within the next

2140
01:32:41,860 --> 01:32:37,130
couple months well the full moon to

2141
01:32:44,620 --> 01:32:41,870
floss the full moon is all right maybe

2142
01:32:46,180 --> 01:32:44,630
it isn't a full moon well anyway I know

2143
01:32:49,390 --> 01:32:46,190
and it looks like there's a full moon

2144
01:32:51,690 --> 01:32:49,400
but in my case who really knows anyway

2145
01:32:57,100 --> 01:32:51,700
it's been another really interesting

2146
01:33:01,270 --> 01:32:57,110
evening here at the kco are exploring a

2147
01:33:04,720 --> 01:33:01,280
bizarre headquarters and of course I

2148
01:33:07,390 --> 01:33:04,730
want to thank our producer Tina and I

2149
01:33:08,350 --> 01:33:07,400
want to thank Peter who does our YouTube

2150
01:33:12,910 --> 01:33:08,360
channel

2151
01:33:14,530 --> 01:33:12,920
mr. UFO secret files and all the people

2152
01:33:16,720 --> 01:33:14,540
who help us

2153
01:33:19,899 --> 01:33:16,730
while our forthcoming and past guests

2154
01:33:22,720 --> 01:33:19,909
and most of all Tim Schwartz and Tim

2155
01:33:26,260 --> 01:33:22,730
Buckley who I know is listening and our

2156
01:33:30,510 --> 01:33:26,270
guests know I hope our guests for the

2157
01:33:34,810 --> 01:33:30,520
evening and let's all go and have a

2158
01:33:37,350 --> 01:33:34,820
great weekend and we'll the twelve you

2159
01:33:42,100 --> 01:33:37,360
next week same time same channel and

2160
01:33:50,169 --> 01:33:42,110
look out for ghosts and UFOs and little

2161
01:33:53,350 --> 01:33:50,179
green men good I don't you've been

2162
01:33:56,610 --> 01:33:53,360
listening to exploring the bizarre with

2163
01:33:59,470 --> 01:33:56,620
hosts Timothy Becky and to Swartz

2164
01:34:02,380 --> 01:33:59,480
they're taking back the night by jetting

2165
01:34:04,450 --> 01:34:02,390
non-stop across the cosmos in search of

2166
01:34:08,280 --> 01:34:04,460
the truly bizarre and totally

2167
01:34:10,790 --> 01:34:08,290
unexplained with you as their code

2168
01:34:15,270 --> 01:34:10,800
Thursday nights at 7:00 p.m. Pacific

2169
01:34:16,080 --> 01:34:15,280
10:00 p.m. Eastern on the K cor digital

2170
01:34:18,940 --> 01:34:16,090
radio

2171
01:34:22,360 --> 01:34:18,950
for more information on exploring the

2172
01:34:25,210 --> 01:34:22,370
bazaar and hosts Timothy Becky Anton

2173
01:34:28,330 --> 01:34:25,220
Swartz check out their kco our digital

2174
01:34:34,540 --> 01:34:28,340
radio network follow their YouTube

2175
01:34:44,950 --> 01:34:34,550
channel @m our UFO 1100 explore the